Forum Moderation and Regulation Poll

[High on Lullabies]

Hey everyone,

The staff have been discussing various issues and have decided to run a bit of health check as to how you guys think we're doing as regards the number of rules and regs. and how we are enforcing them. After all, if you weren't here they'd be no point in us being here!

Voting in the poll is of course anonymous and don't feel under any pressure to tell us why you voted the way you did. However if you would like to expand on your answers then please do so, either in this thread, or by PM to any of the Staff .

We haven't put this poll in the Snake Pit both because this would prevent our Validating and Pending members taking part, and also because we're not looking for straight up rants here. Constructive criticism however, will be very welcome. We want to make your experience here the best we can, and we hope that canvassing for opinions in this way will help us do that.

[Nicole]

Oops...I put over-regulated. Sorry. I meant "about right"!

[Kiwifruit]

I think the moderation of the forum is just about perfect Despite the (few ) moments that I've ground my teeth, sulked and wished there was maybe a tad more lenience, I do think that the moderation and firm rules help keep the forum's character and community as friendly and positive as they are. I've joined lots of forums over the years and this is the best I've been a part of so far and I believe the dedication and work of the staff contributes a large part, if not the largest, to the feel and culture of the place. Thank you, moderators and administrators, for making this a great amazing place to be!

[gryffin]

I've said I'm happy with the overall quality of the administration - and I am: this forum is an extraordinary place indeed.

The reason why I have said that the forum is over-regulated is that in the past few years there have been sudden strictures and changes in the rules which went somehow in the direction of general forbidding-ness without an obvious interest in the protection of others' liberties (which, of course, would be adamant ground for specific limitations to general freedom) and, especially, that such changes have been brought about with little transparency on the process of decision-making, and with little to no consultation of the forum at large on issues that, after all, do concern the members of the forum at large. (Mind me: I am not contesting the outcome of any such decision, but the method by which they were reached.) But there has been one important instance last year in which a possible change in the rules was announced and discussed quite publicly before a decision was made, and I am fully aware that this very poll seems to be a stride forward in the right direction: if from now on every change in the rules were to be debated publicly and voted on by the forum before being implemented by the staff, I would - well - shut up.

So, good job - and thanks for all the work you are putting into this forum.

[Guest]

I had to ask vet where this was; might help to put up an announcement or something in order to attract attention

[sneezomania]

During the 13 years I've been "busy" on the Internet, I have participated actively at around 15 different boards, not counting those which I used just for a few days or weeks. And if I compare these boards administration quality wise, I have to say that this one is one of the best.

Certainly there were things which could have been done better, but with such a big forum with so many members, threads and posts, it's simply impossible to do everything perfectly right. And for the over-regulation issue: I think it's important to keep in mind that this is a board for topics of a strong sexual relevance, and we have many underaged users here, so for these and other reasons it's just necessary to define some certain rules and make sure that they aren't broken.

Perhaps there are some things which should be changed gradually, but right now I couldn't name one such thing, and, as I said, I think that all in all, the administration and moderation work at the SFF is very good.

Edited March 1, 2010 by sneezomania

[wunderkind]

Well, I signed up here knowing the rules so I'm not about to whine about them. However I would have to say that I think it's very strict here in terms of allowing new members to integrate themselves. I've been here over a year and I still can't even edit my own posts.. That's extremely odd for an online forum.

I understand the ethos behind the decision to run it this way, but I question whether or not members are being scared away from signing up due to such a rigid validation/vetting process.

Maybe if the doors were opened (ie, you sign up, you can use the forums freely, use the live chat to meet members, change your avatar/sig in order to display a bit of personality) we might well see an influx of new fetishists. That would only be of benefit to the community in the long term.

The way things are run elsewhere is that new members are trusted until them prove themselves untrustworthy. Then they are restricted or banned. Here it's almost the other way around.

This topic is a prime example for me. The fact that mods/admin are willing to ask for suggestions and receive feedback suggests that they want to improve, but I've browsed this forum for years, been a fetishist since pretty much the beginning online, and I still don't even have the right to vote on the poll....

But like I said, I guess rules are rules.

PS - Would welcome any comments on my opinion.

[Vetinari]

Maybe if the doors were opened (ie, you sign up, you can use the forums freely, use the live chat to meet members, change your avatar/sig in order to display a bit of personality) we might well see an influx of new fetishists.

The way things are run elsewhere is that new members are trusted until them prove themselves untrustworthy. Then they are restricted or banned. Here it's almost the other way around.

Without asking for specifics, are the other forums you mention sites which deal with matters of a sexual nature but also have under 18 members? I can't say I have ever seen another forum similar to this one in that way. Even with the validation processes that we have in place at the moment, we do have problems now and then with youngsters receiving inappropriate attention.

I would be highly reluctant to allow any unvalidated members into the chat room in particular because things can happen in there very fast and we can't ensure there are always staff present. I am unsure whether higher staff members than myself can access records of what has been said, I know I can't and I feel it is better to at least try to ensure the safety of our younger members by having a reasonable level of control over who has access.

You mention that you have been browsing the forum for years and been a fetishist online for a long time. You have been a member for over a year and have only posted 32 times. I presume then that it has been your choice not to contribute very much during that time. If what you say is true, there have been many years during which you could have joined up and gained immediate access to everything. The strictness of the validation processes is fairly new. I cannot therefore really understand why you feel that opening things up is likely to encourage others. The previous openness has not encouraged you.

I personally only discovered the online community in perhaps 2006 and I feel that I am pretty well integrated. The reason for that is that I wanted to take part and have a say in the community and so I made the effort to contribute. It wasn't that difficult.

I would say that the validation processes have evolved with the forum for a reason. I am aware that they are perhaps too strict for some people but I personally prefer not to have to come in every day and find spam and abuse from people who are not fetishists but choose to come here to cause trouble. I feel that we have to balance the openness to new members against the safety, privacy and enjoyment of the established members and I feel (both as a member of staff and as a member of the community) that the current regulations are about right.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Vetinari

[tma]

Well, I signed up here knowing the rules so I'm not about to whine about them. However I would have to say that I think it's very strict here in terms of allowing new members to integrate themselves. I've been here over a year and I still can't even edit my own posts.. That's extremely odd for an online forum.

I understand the ethos behind the decision to run it this way, but I question whether or not members are being scared away from signing up due to such a rigid validation/vetting process.

Maybe if the doors were opened (ie, you sign up, you can use the forums freely, use the live chat to meet members, change your avatar/sig in order to display a bit of personality) we might well see an influx of new fetishists. That would only be of benefit to the community in the long term.

The way things are run elsewhere is that new members are trusted until them prove themselves untrustworthy. Then they are restricted or banned. Here it's almost the other way around.

This topic is a prime example for me. The fact that mods/admin are willing to ask for suggestions and receive feedback suggests that they want to improve, but I've browsed this forum for years, been a fetishist since pretty much the beginning online, and I still don't even have the right to vote on the poll....

But like I said, I guess rules are rules.

PS - Would welcome any comments on my opinion.

An "old-timer" here... I Really do NOT want Live Chat opened. Yes- you are right- there would most Certainly be an influx of fetishists if more things were opened up. Granted that possibly even a wide majority of those who would enter would be harmless. BUT... things used to be more "opened up" and trolls and sharks took advantage of the situation.

Yes- members can be banned- after the fact- however- in other forums what you might not be taking into account would be how Large the moderating staff is, what the main topic is, and the normal age range of members. Also- there Already have been members who have been scared away- and who have taken their material with them (which I Don't blame them for) not by the "rigid" rules of entry to Certain areas, but by inappropriate comments and being Pressured for material- regardless of how politely they say, "I don't feel comfortable with that". And to be honest- the vast majority of people where there has been a problem where people that there was a couple of "nice posts" and then Soon afterwards the creepyness would start.

Yes- when things are reported and when Staff are aware of inappropriate posts- they get rid of them and banning can be done if needed. But... there isn't a pletheroa of staff members and they do have lives outside of here, so it can't happen immediately.

Part of the ethos of this forum is to have a place where members (*Especially* members who participate on a regular basis and give (not just take) to the community (in various ways) can have fun And feel safe.

There *Are* lurkers who are just NOT interested in the community. They are Only interested in the forum as a place where they can gather material. They don't care about participating at all. Ok- that is fine. But if that is the case- why should they be allowed access to Everything pronto?

In a way in some cases it really comes down to considering the "rights" of people that the Staff don't feel that they have a feel for (as far as potential problems). People who for whatever reason are not participating even Remotely actively (if it has been a Long time). That is fine- no one *has* to participate. I lurked on a previous forum for a while before I was comfortable.

Anway... considering those "rights" versus the "rights" of the regularly participating members, and making this a place where they can feel free to participate (which- Clearly they want to do) without fear of trolls and sharks. Do they occasionally get in? Yes- but I'd say much less since posts are watched prior to allowing free reign.

[Nicole]

tma, I agree with you 100%. You said it well!

[Chanel_no5]

I think the whole "strict about new members" is what we need. I know some people think it's too harsh, but come on, if someone don't want to participate, why should those of us who do give them 100% access to "free porn" (yes that is in fact what it is)? If you don't wish to be a part of it, then don't. If you feel it's too much of a bother to participate and post nice things in order to get a full membership, then you can't be that interested anyway.

That's how I think of it. And frankly, I wish this forum would be LESS public and LESS open to others.

Chanel reminices...

I remember finding the sneeze fetish community when I was 13-14. There were no forums like this one then, and there wasn't really a regulation on any of those sites, simply a "18+" mark. Tell you the truth? I read one of those stories, and then I made a face like this and then went back to read the ones without said mark. It didn't scare me off, it didn't harm me in any way, I just didn't like it and I didn't want to read it.

(Of course, I read Stephen King's "IT" when I was nine, so perhaps I was toughened.. )

That being said, I think sometimes the rules can be slightly too harsh - a while ago it was pretty much so, but that has lighten up a bit. Either that, or I'm following the rules better now. The 18 + for language and mentioning sex could perhaps be a little bit lighter, but I know why it is the way it is, so I'm not about to rave about it, don't worry. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE it that there is the 18+ board that no guests or underage members can access. I absolutely want it to stay that way.

Okay, I think I've blabbered enough now, I hardly remember what I was saying from the beginning. I picked "About right" by the way.

[LeapYearKisses]

I am a fairly new member, both to the sneeze fetishist community and this board, and I am quite satisfied with the regulations. Perhaps I have not experienced some of the rule changes that others are upset about... Because nothing is coming to mind.

At first, when I found the board, I was turned off by the strict rules for joining. I may have been interested only in the "free porn" as it has been put before. But once I did join and I got to know some of the people here, I found myself really wanting to participate. By waiting for full access, I was forced to sort of hang out and watch how things were done so that, by the time I was validated, I knew what was expected and what was allowed and how not to make an ass of myself. So I am in favor of the long validation process.

That's my opinion. XD

[count tiszula]

I think the main thing about the atmosphere here is that it is so friendly and welcoming, without either the unrestrained criticism and flaming sometimes found on such sites, or, I would hope, the feeling that everything is for the benefit of a few exclusive cliques. The Moderation and Regulation undoubtedly produces this gentle atmosphere, and while no regime is ever perfect, it is doing pretty well.

I suppose I have to count myself as an old timer by now, and sadly over the last three years or so there does seem to have been a huge number of new rules and perhaps worse a new attitude to rules which has changed what was previously an even more easy-going place, at least sometimes.

I am perhaps a bit odd because I have a sort of ideal forum in mind which can probably never exist. Such a forum would be not just a social centre and meeting place for those of us with an interest in sneezing, but a central information supply for any people with such an interest, and indeed one could say almost an education facility for all such people.

So I have nothing against people who come here only for "sneezeporn"; obviously I do myself and indeed what is that meant to mean when all the materials here are so bland and controlled? There is almost a war against commercial material and even poor old YouTube, apparently just through mild distaste. So many people who are just sneeze fans like the rest of us must have been frightened off by sudden and bewildering rule changes or punishments which are very hard to understand or indeed justify. I think if some of these rules were explained or detailed it would be a tremendous help. I am still at a loss as to whether some of the more obscure rules relating to minors are supposed to be protecting us from our own immorality or from the supposed laws and law enforcers of some far away country.

What Chanel says about her own reaction to adult material when young is most illuminating; and of course she refers to written matter, where obscenity in a legal sense is unlikely to occur. Just look at the best selling fiction in any bookshop.

I suppose really it is the rigidity and unreality of some of the rules that does take us into paradoxical places; like when the whole world was talking about the sneezing girl, except us, because she was 12; or when moderators have to spend hours searching around to find out whether someone was 17 or 18 when they pretended to sneeze in a film; are we really to imagine that any legal body could ever take any interest in such a matter, when frankly there is no jurisdiction in the world where it is illegal to watch such a film. Or when we, who are clearly the best suited to inform young people what it can be like to grow up with our interest are effectiively prevented from giving advice that is desperately asked for.

Anyway, if there were just a tiny bit of give and take all this would be avoided, and the forum in any case remains a most wonderful place, such as I never could have imagined a few years ago....

[Lynne]

Just to clarify one point you've brought up, Count....

We never objected to DISCUSSION about the 12-year-old girl, we objected to video clips. The thread discussing what she was enduring is still here.

[wunderkind]

Without asking for specifics, are the other forums you mention sites which deal with matters of a sexual nature but also have under 18 members?

No not specifically, I was referring to the way online forums work in general.

I would be highly reluctant to allow any unvalidated members into the chat room in particular because things can happen in there very fast and we can't ensure there are always staff present. I am unsure whether higher staff members than myself can access records of what has been said, I know I can't and I feel it is better to at least try to ensure the safety of our younger members by having a reasonable level of control over who has access.

This is reasonable. But I have never been in these chat rooms, I'm not aware of the content, not aware of how moderated they are, and not aware of the rules associated with them.

You mention that you have been browsing the forum for years and been a fetishist online for a long time. You have been a member for over a year and have only posted 32 times. I presume then that it has been your choice not to contribute very much during that time.

Technically, I was a member here before under another username but I requested deletion of that account because a simple google search of my handle would have revealed my identity to people I know. I googled myself one day, and on the first results page was the sneeze fetish forum. This was unacceptable to me, so the account was kindly deleted at my request.

In reference to my post count, I'm not really sure what you mean by it. I browse the forum everyday, I read most of what is written, and I comment approximately once a fortnight (granted not like clockwork), but still, if I was aware that post count was such a major factor in being accepted into the community then I would have spent 3 days posting and then maybe withdrawn afterwards...

Is anything in place to stop members being validated after 100 posts in 10 days and then solely using the chat rooms/trading threads? Never to be seen again in any kind of meaningful discussion?

I personally only discovered the online community in perhaps 2006 and I feel that I am pretty well integrated. The reason for that is that I wanted to take part and have a say in the community and so I made the effort to contribute. It wasn't that difficult.

Difficult for you, maybe not. But as I sure you are aware, this is a difficult subject for people to come on here and openly debate. Whilst some are comfortable with the fetish and willing to discuss it with partners and friends, there are others (like myself) who would do almost anything to avoid such exposure.

I don't consider myself a victim of your forums policies, in fact I said 2 or 3 times in my first post that I was aware of the rules when I rejoined; but not everyone is as comfortable voicing opinions on this subject as you appear to be.

I would say that the validation processes have evolved with the forum for a reason. I am aware that they are perhaps too strict for some people but I personally prefer not to have to come in every day and find spam and abuse from people who are not fetishists but choose to come here to cause trouble. I feel that we have to balance the openness to new members against the safety, privacy and enjoyment of the established members and I feel (both as a member of staff and as a member of the community) that the current regulations are about right.

This I agree with. I've never really considered the whole under 18 aspect of this board before, and I take your points.

As for spam and abuse of the forum - Ban it when it occurs. I'm not anti validation at all, but I must admit I have thought more than once about how strict things appear to be here. More so than anywhere else I've been online.

- - - - - - -

- - - - - - -

if someone don't want to participate, why should those of us who do give them 100% access to "free porn"

I'm quite disturbed by your description of youtube material/wav files as porn, but maybe this is my issue. I don't think of it that way at all.

If your concern is genuine about denying non members access to collated material online then the solution is simple. Restrict access to the Youtube/myspace thread to validated members. There is a reason that this is by far the most viewed thread on this forum, and thats because of the reasons you said. 100% access to all.

However by the same token, the freeloaders who view this topic without adding anything to the debate are reading this forum all the time. The more time they spend here, the more likely they are to eventually take the plunge and start talking.

- - - - - - -

- - - - - - -

when moderators have to spend hours searching around to find out whether someone was 17 or 18 when they pretended to sneeze in a film; are we really to imagine that any legal body could ever take any interest in such a matter, when frankly there is no jurisdiction in the world where it is illegal to watch such a film.

Quoted for truth.

I hope you aren't all marking me out to be a bad person because I disagree with some of your policies here, but the point of this forum is for debate, and I hope my criticisms are being taken in the right manner.

Either way, I'll be here until I'm validated, however long it takes.

[Lynne]

Post count is a contributing factor, but it's not the reason we validated people. However, if we see someone who has been a member for a considerable amount of time and who barely posts... Yes, it may be discriminatory, but we tend to shy away from validating those people. You've been a member for almost two years, and you've posted 34 posts (three in this one thread). That wouldn't scream out to the admins "I really want to be here, validate me!".

The reason we have such a strict validation process is because this fetish, for whatever reason, tends to attract a lot of predators, many of whom will not distinguish between a consenting adult and an underage member. We have girls and boys as young as 13 here (and possibly younger, if they've lied about their age). For their protection, we require a little bit of hoop-jumping from anyone who wants to access such things as personal profiles, the chat room (which our younger members really seem to enjoy frequenting) and the commercial posting areas. We're not concerned about people coming around for the free porn, heck, we don't even host most of it on our own site (Bondi's, Youtube, Serotica, etc.). What concerns us is the people who don't care HOW they get the free porn, or who they get it from, and who will badger anyone and everyone to get what they want. Yes, it's happened in the past that people have harassed underage members to produce clips/videos for them. Frequently. That's why not just everybody gets access to the profiles (where contact information is often posted). I'm sorry if you find our calling it "porn" to be offensive... people use the materials we provide and point to for sexual gratification. That pretty much means it's being used as pornography, so we tend to refer to it as such. It's not a judgment, it's a fact.

Participation doesn't necessarily mean telling your life story or pouring your heart out regarding the fetish. It means what it would mean in any community - you come around, you participate in discussions (whether sneeze-related or not), you post positively, and you let the staff see you. We're pretty easy-going about the validation process, but we do require *some* effort on the member's part. And we don't tend to appreciate post-count padding (which is usually pretty obvious anyway), so please don't start posting a bunch of nonsense in an effort to be validated (not saying you'll run off and do that, but it's happened in the past when people got wind of the "minimum post count" which isn't really a minimum at all, more of a guideline).

I hope this clears things up for you somewhat. It basically comes down to a choice. We either stop allowing underage members to frequent the forum (which isn't what anybody wants), or we put safeguards in place to protect those underage members from being victimized or treated inappropriately. It's a balancing act, and sometimes we do err a little too much on the side of caution, but we're also human, and we do make mistakes. When we do, we try to correct them as quickly as possible.

[Vetinari]

]You mention that you have been browsing the forum for years and been a fetishist online for a long time. You have been a member for over a year and have only posted 32 times. I presume then that it has been your choice not to contribute very much during that time.

Technically, I was a member here before under another username but I requested deletion of that account because a simple google search of my handle would have revealed my identity to people I know. I googled myself one day, and on the first results page was the sneeze fetish forum. This was unacceptable to me, so the account was kindly deleted at my request.

Thanks for explaining this. The process you describe is very unlikely to occur now because (in my experience....which is recent as I explained) the norm would be to suggest you change your username and I think it is unlikely that your account would be deleted unless there was some very compelling reason (after the name change) for that to be done. There was no indication of this in your original post and I therefore assumed that you had, as I said before, probably chosen not to contribute at all for years before becoming a member (I say probably because for all I know you might have contributed elsewhere) relatively recently and then not posting very frequently thereafter. That kind of occasional posting would seem normal to me from a long standing member who perhaps contributed more in earlier days but now only commented when really moved to do so. There are quite a few established members who seem to post that way.

[wunderkind]

Thanks for the answers.

Validation and acceptance into all areas of the forum aside, may I ask what the logic is behind not allowing me to edit a post to correct spellings etc?

[tma]

Thanks for the answers.

Validation and acceptance into all areas of the forum aside, may I ask what the logic is behind not allowing me to edit a post to correct spellings etc?

I think that part of it... but I could be misremembering (anyone who knows better can feel free to set me straight)... had to do with avoiding having members post something say against the rules- and then change it. Which in one sense- I think that being able to change- for spelling or after thinking about what was said would be good- but in another I think that it can in some instances lead to trying to deny having said/done something.

I know that in other arenas outside of here (say LJ) you can't edit a post in a thread. Original posts yes, but not within a thread. Probably for the same reasons.

[Vetinari]

Thanks for the answers.

Validation and acceptance into all areas of the forum aside, may I ask what the logic is behind not allowing me to edit a post to correct spellings etc?

I think that part of it... but I could be misremembering (anyone who knows better can feel free to set me straight)... had to do with avoiding having members post something say against the rules- and then change it. Which in one sense- I think that being able to change- for spelling or after thinking about what was said would be good- but in another I think that it can in some instances lead to trying to deny having said/done something.

I know that in other arenas outside of here (say LJ) you can't edit a post in a thread. Original posts yes, but not within a thread. Probably for the same reasons.

Actually I wasn't in on that discussion but that makes perfect sense to me tma. I have seen instances where posters have flamed other members, who then responded and the original poster then changed their post to make it look as if they were just an innocent party who had been unfairly attacked..

[The Mute Poet]

We've also has instances in the past, when all members were free to edit their posts at their discretion, where, following a personal dispute, certain members decided to leave the forum and proeeded to edit nonsense smileys or negative comments into every post they had ever made. Needless to say, not only would that sort of thing ruin the contuniuty of countless older threads members might enjoy going back to read, but that sort of mass negative participation detracts from the overall community atmosphere and wellbeing of the forum. So, I know it might be a bit frustrating for some, but in addition to the reason tma stated, certain members have in the past have grossly abused the editing function as well.

I'm always more than happy to edit anything anyone needs help with for them though, even as minute as a word change or a spelling error, they've only to ask.

[MyOwnPrivateSFC]

I'm always more than happy to edit anything anyone needs help with for them though, even as minute as a word change or a spelling error, they've only to ask.

Not that it's too big a deal to me now (since I have instant editing capabilities, at least, and rarely see things I need to change too much after I post), but this is good to know. Because I always felt, before I could edit, as though I should only ask a mod to edit something of mine if it was important to the meaning or whathaveyou (liike a missing or wrong word, for exacmple). And so I tended to obsess over my inability to edit, because I'm a perfectionist, and so simple typos would drive me nuts. Knowing that mods (or, at the very least, a mod; I don't presume that you speak for everyone) are willing to change stupid stuff would have definitely made me less antsy about wondering when I'd get editing priveledges.

[Vetinari]

I'm always more than happy to edit anything anyone needs help with for them though, even as minute as a word change or a spelling error, they've only to ask.

Not that it's too big a deal to me now (since I have instant editing capabilities, at least, and rarely see things I need to change too much after I post), but this is good to know. Because I always felt, before I could edit, as though I should only ask a mod to edit something of mine if it was important to the meaning or whathaveyou (liike a missing or wrong word, for exacmple). And so I tended to obsess over my inability to edit, because I'm a perfectionist, and so simple typos would drive me nuts. Knowing that mods (or, at the very least, a mod; I don't presume that you speak for everyone) are willing to change stupid stuff would have definitely made me less antsy about wondering when I'd get editing priveledges.

Goodness, well in that case I will add my willingness to edit anything for anybody as well (in the areas where I have access). I know how annoying those things can be!

[a red nine]

When I first joined, I did feel like the wait between posting and the limited amount of places you could go was restricting. But I understand the purpose behind it now and I think it is fair. If you really want to be a member, you'll 'work' for it and then reap the benefits.

I've been on other websites similar to this, though with different purposes in mind (they weren't fetish sites), and felt they were much stricter about their policies. This place has a lot of freedom in comparison to those. I think everything here is handled very orderly, especially considering the age range and content. I have no complaints!

Edited April 28, 2010 by a red nine

[cheetah]

I personally have not been on many other forums, so I can't give you much of an opinion on how this one is in comparison to otbers, but for the short time I've been here, I believe the system works perfectly. Rather than restricting 18+ users from what they would want or allow younger people access things they shouldn't, it's just...perfectly balanced. The validating process, I think, should be a law among forums- I'm sure a great many of sharks and trolls would never had spammed if it had. The rules are a lot stricter here than most, true, but that's actually a good thing as long as it's not too constricting. At least, from the short time I've been here, that's the impression I get. If I could vote, you'd get a solid ten.