Stop forced sterilisation in Sweden

[Skiffy]

I'm no expert on Swedish law, or trans* issues for that matter, so I'm sorry for making mistakes here and for not explaining things well. If other forum members wanna sweep in and clear things up, that would be awesome.

From what I know- currently in Sweden, all transgender people are required to be surgically sterilised before the state will recognise their gender. They must also be over 18, unmarried and a Swedish citizen. I think these rules might also apply before you can have gender reassignment surgery.

It was recently decided that these laws should be reconsidered, and they have been. But all that's being dropped is the requirement of being a single Swedish citizen. The Christian Democrats (which are the smallest of 4 ruling parties in the coalition) have somehow blocked proposals to get rid of enforced sterilisation, even though the majority of Parliament are in favour of removing it.

This petition, organised by LGBT rights group RFSL, asks the Prime Minister to ignore the conservative minority's demands and to "defend the fundamental human rights of ALL Swedish citizens".

http://allout.org/en/actions/stop_forced_sterilization/

(It's a world-wide petition, you don't have to be Swedish to sign)

[Jorm]

It's not entirely clear from the little bit of information on the petition page, but I think that what they are talking about is not forced sterilization in the sense that the law specifically requires or desires sterilization in transgender people, but that in order for you to legally change your gender you are required to undergo genital reconstruction surgery which has the side effect of sterilizing the patient.

If that is the case it's interesting to me that they're focusing on the sterilization as the main reason to repeal the law. We have similar laws in most states in the U.S. regarding gender markers on official documents (Driver's license, social security, passport, healthcare, etc) requiring proof of genital reassignment surgery having been performed and the petitions for removal of those laws have generally focused on the fact that a person's gender (and subsuquently the accurate reflection of it on paperwork) does not and should not be tied to that person's genitals, but rather to their internal identity. The law in my own state was recently changed and now only requires that you have a doctor's letter stating that you are receiving some form of treatment for gender identity disorder. I wonder if the sterilization angle might actually be a more effect one in some ways as it's something that would be more understandable to cisgendered (non-trans) people who could much more easily grasp the problem with forcing sterilization on an individual than they could grasp the idea of gender identity, transsexuality, and the distinct separation of those from physical genitalia at birth.

I know we have several Swedish citizens here on the forum, any of you know more about this? *is very curious now*

[TheCakeIsAlive]

I'm not entirely sure (and too lazy atm to check) but I'm quite sure it's not just Sweden that has that particular legislation, I think even our "liberal" country has that requirement if people want their gender recognised they have to be sterilised. There was some upheaval about this a while ago as it violates human rights.

[March Hare]

Curious, indeed. I, too, would like some more information about this.

[Jorm]

I'm not entirely sure (and too lazy atm to check) but I'm quite sure it's not just Sweden that has that particular legislation, I think even our "liberal" country has that requirement if people want their gender recognised they have to be sterilised. There was some upheaval about this a while ago as it violates human rights.

Do you know if for where you are that means sterilization specifically or if it refers to genital reconstruction and only sterilization by default because of that?

[Garnet]

I have a trans buddy in Sweden and have been passing this around myself, and here's how I understand it.

If you choose to transition on hormones without genital reconstructive surgery, your gender change will not be recognized unless you also undergo surgical sterilization. While it's true that (from a FtM perspective since that's what I'm familiar with) the hormones will eventually make you sterile anyway, I don't believe the law accounts for that. You'd still need an invasive surgery to be able to declare your gender change officially.

In addition, transgender people are not allowed to save their eggs or sperm to be used later on down the road, after they've transitioned, and any pre-existing ones will be destroyed. So. Yeah.

[Jorm]

I have a trans buddy in Sweden and have been passing this around myself, and here's how I understand it.

If you choose to transition on hormones without genital reconstructive surgery, your gender change will not be recognized unless you also undergo surgical sterilization. While it's true that (from a FtM perspective since that's what I'm familiar with) the hormones will eventually make you sterile anyway, I don't believe the law accounts for that. You'd still need an invasive surgery to be able to declare your gender change officially.

In addition, transgender people are not allowed to save their eggs or sperm to be used later on down the road, after they've transitioned, and any pre-existing ones will be destroyed. So. Yeah.

Wow. Thanks for the info! That's a lot more extreme than what I was imagining. I can't even begin to fathom the thinking behind something like that. They might as well say they're also going to execute any already existing children that a transgender person has had as it sounds like they really are genuinely trying to prevent trans people from reproducing. That's disgusting. I was planning on signing the petition anyway, but now there's no question. I'm truly shocked.

[Nova]

I have a trans buddy in Sweden and have been passing this around myself, and here's how I understand it.

If you choose to transition on hormones without genital reconstructive surgery, your gender change will not be recognized unless you also undergo surgical sterilization. While it's true that (from a FtM perspective since that's what I'm familiar with) the hormones will eventually make you sterile anyway, I don't believe the law accounts for that. You'd still need an invasive surgery to be able to declare your gender change officially.

In addition, transgender people are not allowed to save their eggs or sperm to be used later on down the road, after they've transitioned, and any pre-existing ones will be destroyed. So. Yeah.

Wow. Thanks for the info! That's a lot more extreme than what I was imagining. I can't even begin to fathom the thinking behind something like that. They might as well say they're also going to execute any already existing children that a transgender person has had as it sounds like they really are genuinely trying to prevent trans people from reproducing. That's disgusting. I was planning on signing the petition anyway, but now there's no question. I'm truly shocked.

Well. Governments just can't handle things properly, ever.

What Garnet says is right. Your gender change will not be (juridically) recognized unless you're sterile and unable to ever have any children — whatever way you can think of — not counting adoption, I think, but that's probably difficult too. So, you cannot keep eggs or sperm under any circumstances. This is extreme, should and probably will change quite soon. I don't think a conservative political party of 4 percent, such as this KD of ours, will be able to keep it the way it is for long. Big parts of Europe seems to have taken an interest in this and considers it violation against human rights and as we always seem eager to please the bigger masses, these strange laws will most likely be removed. I think it's sad that they're there, probably as relics from the past, but I'm not really worried yet as I can't see them prolonging their visit much longer.

It's great that as many persons as possible sign petitions like this. (You should sign a PIPA and SOPA one while you're at it, too)

Anyway... I also want to say that Sweden most likely isn't the only country where this happens and many countries are probably much worse when it comes to LGBT-rights. I don't know why everyone talks about it now - probably some media person found out about it and whatnot. I know that doesn't make it any better, but I'm still saying. Don't hate us, hate the attitude. ; )

[doggo]

Why the defensive attitude, Nova? I doubt anyone here is thinking "Ooooh, Swedes suck!" but only that this piece of Swedish law seems indeed inexcusable.

Also, one would think that nevertheless a democratically elected governmet can still offer a lot when it comes to promoting human rights for all citizens, compared to corporate tribalism or whatever would be the modern option.

Thanks for bringing this up, Skiffy, I had no idea.

[TheCakeIsAlive]

I'm not entirely sure (and too lazy atm to check) but I'm quite sure it's not just Sweden that has that particular legislation, I think even our "liberal" country has that requirement if people want their gender recognised they have to be sterilised. There was some upheaval about this a while ago as it violates human rights.

Do you know if for where you are that means sterilization specifically or if it refers to genital reconstruction and only sterilization by default because of that?

I've googled a little more and the way the websites I saw respresented it (they all did seem to come from the same source though, and biased so I don't know quite how trustworthy they are) as "to have your gender recognised by the government, you need to have had hormone treatment, genital reconstruction and have to be sterilised". They said this law was originally instated to "protect the people themselves" from making hasty decisions.

Yes, anyway, sterilisation because of the surgery according to this source. The article also stated that it's quite likely our government will reconsider this law soon though. And mentioned nothing about not being allowed to freeze in eggs or sperm.

[JenJen]

I doubt anyone here is thinking "Ooooh, Swedes suck!" but only that this piece of Swedish law seems indeed inexcusable.

If being an American has taught me anything (lol), it's that the attitudes of the government usually in no way reflect the attitudes of the average citizen. A country is not its government. I wouldn't blame/think less of the Swedish people for this forced sterilization business at all. The ones with the power just have a very narrow, bigoted view. Which is unfortunately the case in many, many countries (including mine).

Thanks for bringing my attention to this. Petition is signed!

[Nova]

Why the defensive attitude, Nova? I doubt anyone here is thinking "Ooooh, Swedes suck!" but only that this piece of Swedish law seems indeed inexcusable.

Also, one would think that nevertheless a democratically elected governmet can still offer a lot when it comes to promoting human rights for all citizens, compared to corporate tribalism or whatever would be the modern option.

Thanks for bringing this up, Skiffy, I had no idea.

It wasn't a defensive attitude - I was sort of afraid someone would think that and I never think anyone hates me. It was more: "the problem is bigger than one country". I most likely would've wrote it whatever country it was.

[resolution]

One should definitely be cautious about the use of the phrase "forced sterilization", it has a history far more sinister than any legislation being described here.

[Skiffy]

One should definitely be cautious about the use of the phrase "forced sterilization", it has a history far more sinister than any legislation being described here.

You're right, I shouldn't have worded it like that. Sorry.

[Jorm]

I have a trans buddy in Sweden and have been passing this around myself, and here's how I understand it.

If you choose to transition on hormones without genital reconstructive surgery, your gender change will not be recognized unless you also undergo surgical sterilization. While it's true that (from a FtM perspective since that's what I'm familiar with) the hormones will eventually make you sterile anyway, I don't believe the law accounts for that. You'd still need an invasive surgery to be able to declare your gender change officially.

In addition, transgender people are not allowed to save their eggs or sperm to be used later on down the road, after they've transitioned, and any pre-existing ones will be destroyed. So. Yeah.

Wow. Thanks for the info! That's a lot more extreme than what I was imagining. I can't even begin to fathom the thinking behind something like that. They might as well say they're also going to execute any already existing children that a transgender person has had as it sounds like they really are genuinely trying to prevent trans people from reproducing. That's disgusting. I was planning on signing the petition anyway, but now there's no question. I'm truly shocked.

Well. Governments just can't handle things properly, ever.

What Garnet says is right. Your gender change will not be (juridically) recognized unless you're sterile and unable to ever have any children — whatever way you can think of — not counting adoption, I think, but that's probably difficult too. So, you cannot keep eggs or sperm under any circumstances. This is extreme, should and probably will change quite soon. I don't think a conservative political party of 4 percent, such as this KD of ours, will be able to keep it the way it is for long. Big parts of Europe seems to have taken an interest in this and considers it violation against human rights and as we always seem eager to please the bigger masses, these strange laws will most likely be removed. I think it's sad that they're there, probably as relics from the past, but I'm not really worried yet as I can't see them prolonging their visit much longer.

It's great that as many persons as possible sign petitions like this. (You should sign a PIPA and SOPA one while you're at it, too)

Anyway... I also want to say that Sweden most likely isn't the only country where this happens and many countries are probably much worse when it comes to LGBT-rights. I don't know why everyone talks about it now - probably some media person found out about it and whatnot. I know that doesn't make it any better, but I'm still saying. Don't hate us, hate the attitude. ; )

I definitely have no ill feelings towards Swedes (the people or the vegetable!) for this. All the Swedish people I've ever talked to have been very accepting and supportive of the queer community at large and most have been just generally pretty awesome people. And I don't doubt that there are plenty of other countries that have similar absurd laws regarding the transgender population (the u.s. certainly has plenty of it's own ridiculous laws about us and lack of laws protecting us) and I know for a fact that there are a lot of countries that have much, much worse policies and treatment of their transgender citizens.

One should definitely be cautious about the use of the phrase "forced sterilization", it has a history far more sinister than any legislation being described here.

This is undoubtedly true and it's likely the legislation being discussed here is more of a relic that's never been readdressed than anything else, but I think we should also be careful about under representing the level at which this kind of required sterilization is still sinister as well. It's not easy to compare the severity of issues in general, I think, as far as "who has/had it worse". Human rights are human rights and that's what's really important.

[March Hare]

So not only is the legislation discriminatory, it also shows a brutal ignorance about genetics and heredity? I mean, it isn't even true that being transgender is hereditary (is it? Maybe I'm the one who's brutally ignorant...) so what the fuck are they trying to keep the gene pool clean of by laying down these ridiculous restrictions?

[Jorm]

So not only is the legislation discriminatory, it also shows a brutal ignorance about genetics and heredity? I mean, it isn't even true that being transgender is hereditary (is it? Maybe I'm the one who's brutally ignorant...) so what the fuck are they trying to keep the gene pool clean of by laying down these ridiculous restrictions?

There's no scientific suggestion that being transgender is a hereditary genetic trait, no. Most evidence suggests it isn't at least strictly genetic at all, but more a result of hormone exposure during the development of the brain in utero. I've never heard any suggestion by any qualified individual that it's something that can be passed on from parent to child, though there is some evidence to suggest that sexual orientation may have some hereditary basis based on trends of homosexuality appearing to occur more frequently in some families than others.

[March Hare]

So not only is the legislation discriminatory, it also shows a brutal ignorance about genetics and heredity? I mean, it isn't even true that being transgender is hereditary (is it? Maybe I'm the one who's brutally ignorant...) so what the fuck are they trying to keep the gene pool clean of by laying down these ridiculous restrictions?

There's no scientific suggestion that being transgender is a hereditary genetic trait, no. Most evidence suggests it isn't at least strictly genetic at all, but more a result of hormone exposure during the development of the brain in utero. I've never heard any suggestion by any qualified individual that it's something that can be passed on from parent to child, though there is some evidence to suggest that sexual orientation may have some hereditary basis based on trends of homosexuality appearing to occur more frequently in some families than others.

I thought so.

So I'm still wondering why, apparently, it would be better if transgender people were not able to breed. There are a LOT of people in this world who ought to be forcibly sterilised, in my opinion... but hey, you know what? That's not because of their sexual identity. Strange, huh?

[TheCakeIsAlive]

Reviving this topic to say that in the Netherlands, they're about to change the law, so you don't have to undergo any surgery any more to have your gender changed on all your legal document.

Yay.