Inappropriate interactions with underage members

[bloom]

So, spinning off from several posts in the Snake Pit thread, I figured it would be a good idea to discuss this in a place that requires the kind of civility the Snake Pit tends to lack.

I'd really like for this to be an active discussion involving the members. I realize that most Staff discussion has to go on behind closed doors, and I appreciate that, but I think it's really important for the voices of the general membership to be heard in a matter like this. I hope I won't come across as stepping on staff's toes with this post; I just want us to be able to talk openly about this so that everybody's perspective is understood.

Jumping right in:

I have a lot of concerns about the way interactions between underage and overage members here go down sometimes.

First, I don't really understand why underage obs are even allowed to be posted here. Underage members are not allowed to post wavs and I don't understand the functional difference, when people use them for the same purpose.

We have problems with overage people commenting on the obs underage members post. Sometimes this is worse than others, but it's been pervasive since I stumbled across the forum nine years ago. To me, adults commenting on an underage obs is like an adult telling an underage person their breasts look really great in that shirt. Maybe the shirt is really low-cut or something, but does that really make it an appropriate interaction between an adult and a teenager? It is sexually charged because we understand that nearly everybody here gets off on sneezing. An adult should know better than to make comments about sexually-changed things to a teenager but that is obviously not always the case.

Then we have the issue of adults roleplaying with kids. This is an activity where both parties are writing out things they find sexually appealing, with each other. It's collaborative. In an instance like this, an adult is interacting with and exploiting a child in order to fulfill a sexual purpose. I really don't think that's okay, at all.

We could argue that a 17-year-old and an 18-year-old doing this isn't a moral grey area at all, and actually, I would agree with that. But the thing is, if we go that route, then we can say "Well then 17 year olds should have access to the adult board" or something, so I think 18 is a very reasonable line to draw.

I understand that by virtue of allowing U18 members here at all, we're basically fascillitating contact between minors and adults in a sexual context, and that's basically inevitable just because of the nature of the site. And I don't think that it's impossible to communicate with minors here nonsexually, of course - there are a few U18 members I talk to on a regular basis, but about appropriate topics, not things we both enjoy sexually.

I know that there is no way to completely eliminate inappropriate talk between U18 and 18+ people here, but I think we can take steps to eliminate at least some of it. I have some thoughts on how this could possibly be achieved in a way that would also make it easier for staff to moderate, but I don't want to come across like I'm dictating what should be done or anything - I just want to make this place as safe as it possibly can be for the underagers. I'm interested in hearing others' thoughts on the matter.

[Guest]

Going right to the extreme end of possibilities, we could make it so minors can only PM staff and minors, can't post wavs or obs or anything outside of their own subforum and can't be seen as online by anyone but staff and minors. Would require some tinkering with permissions.

[bloom]

I personally think that's a little harsh; I think a lot of our newer members end up being young people and if they can't access huge parts of the forum I think that will drive them away from wanting to participate, which I think would be a shame to see happen. They contribute to the community just like any other member does.

I think restricting minors' obs (and wavs, even) to their own subforum would be a decent solution, though. They'd have to wait until validation to post in there, but it would be for their own protection, and they could easily be validated by commenting on other peoples' stories/obs/artwork and things in the general discussion forum or off-topic or whatever.

[Siegward]

I honestly think part of the problem is that if you are a minor on the forum it is way too hard to get validated and as a result they try posting a lot in obs as soon as possible to try and get access to the Youth Board. I know when I was a minor on here I didn't even try because my writing isn't too great and I didn't want people who weren't minors reading my obs. That basically leaves them the Off Topic section which isn't even the reason they're here and General Discussion which is a ton of repeat topics. This is unless of course the minor can write some stupid good original fiction. Maybe I shouldn't be talking cause I'm still not validated and probably won't be for a while but that's just how I felt here for a really long time.

Sorry for any typing errors. The auto correcct on my phone is terrible.

[Leafeon78]

I know what you mean it does take a long time to get validated but how about those who can't write stories I know I can't everytime I try it totally goes off course or it's not to my standards I think the current restrictions are good enough so those who won't be validated still got access to most of the material here that's my opinion of it.

[bloom]

I was validated in 60 posts without ever having written a story or an observation. I just posted in off-topic and general discussion on whatever caught my fancy. The standards for validation are exactly the same for everybody, it doesn't have anything to do with peoples' age, as far as I am aware.

Alternatively we could discourage/disallow adult members from commenting on underage obs. "Look, don't touch" would be better than nothing if we can't split it so that underage obs aren't viewable by adults.

[Leafeon78]

So that means adult observations should be restricted as well so underage members can't see or post.

[bloom]

...No, it isn't an equivalency. Minors can't exploit adults the way adults can exploit minors in 99% of cases, so minors commenting on observations posted by adults in the main forums is fine. They're already restricted from posting on obs that have adult content in them.

[NoV]

An interesting topic and one that I feel has been long overdue a open forum discussion.

I do feel that part of the forum's strength is that minors and adults can share this space, although I am aware that this is down largely to a great deal of effort from the moderators. I have always been slightly uncomfortable because for me the fetish is very sexual, and I am aware that by posting on this forum I am proclaiming this sexuality in front of members who in the 'real world' I would be horrified to be physically witness to me saying such things. I therefore impose certain rules upon myself as I am sure the majority of the adult forum members do.

I will almost never comment upon stories/observations written by members under the age of 18

If I do, it will be concerning an appreciation of their writing style. It will not be 'damn this was so hot'!

I don't send friend requests to under 18s

I don't listen to wavs or watch videos that star or even feature anyone who I know to be under 18.

Anything sexual I write about beyond the element of sneezing goes in the Adult Boards

I am never to be found in chat, but as with any internet chat feature I would feel uncomfortable talking to any minors, especially on a fetish site.

Anyway, by no means a comprehensive list. Just remember, when online if it feels like you shouldn't be doing it, you probably shouldn't be...

[Anonymouse]

One concern I just thought of is that it's so easy to make an account and say you're thirteen when you're actually much older. There's no way really to get around that but until then I agree we need to find a way to restrict those kinds of interactions.

[froglatte]

An interesting topic and one that I feel has been long overdue a open forum discussion.

I do feel that part of the forum's strength is that minors and adults can share this space, although I am aware that this is down largely to a great deal of effort from the moderators. I have always been slightly uncomfortable because for me the fetish is very sexual, and I am aware that by posting on this forum I am proclaiming this sexuality in front of members who in the 'real world' I would be horrified to be physically witness to me saying such things. I therefore impose certain rules upon myself as I am sure the majority of the adult forum members do.

I will almost never comment upon stories/observations written by members under the age of 18

If I do, it will be concerning an appreciation of their writing style. It will not be 'damn this was so hot'!

I don't send friend requests to under 18s

I don't listen to wavs or watch videos that star or even feature anyone who I know to be under 18.

Anything sexual I write about beyond the element of sneezing goes in the Adult Boards

I am never to be found in chat, but as with any internet chat feature I would feel uncomfortable talking to any minors, especially on a fetish site.

Anyway, by no means a comprehensive list. Just remember, when online if it feels like you shouldn't be doing it, you probably shouldn't be...

As an older forum member this is how I try to conduct myself as well. Even in a general topic, like a survey, if too many underage members start commenting, I will quietly bow out and leave the discussion to the youngsters. My son is 13 so I'm mindful of the squick factor that's involved with such large age differences. I'd like to think most of the other older forum members are mindful of this as well, so if the problem is happening with a few individuals, that should be brought to the attention of the mods rather than paint a whole segment of the membership with the same brush. We're not all creepy.

[bloom]

I'd like to think most of the other older forum members are mindful of this as well, so if the problem is happening with a few individuals, that should be brought to the attention of the mods rather than paint a whole segment of the board with the same brush.

Possum, I really apologize if I came across that way in my original post. I'm speaking specifically about people who comment on observations of teenagers or try to roleplay with them, not people who communicate with them in any capacity. You're right that most people are respectful and aware - I'm just talking about the people who aren't, and I'm not trying to paint the entire adult membership as being out to get younger members. I know that isn't the case at all.

It's less "a few individuals" and more a pattern of behavior, if that makes sense. I'm just talking about anybody overage who does the things I detailed in the OP, not anybody else.

[Leafeon78]

I bet most of the older people on the forum are not really active anymore it's mainly young people to be honest I think adults should know better I don't really see a lot of adults commenting on younger people's material it's a small percentage so I don't think it's such a big concern.

[froglatte]

It's less "a few individuals" and more a pattern of behavior, if that makes sense. I'm just talking about anybody overage who does the things I detailed in the OP, not anybody else.

Sure, I understand that and I can understand the wish for certain protocols to be in place for any future occurences since new members join the forum every day. The only problem is you're either restricting the board for the younger members or slapping the hands of the older members and telling them to behave (in general terms) and that doesn't make for a cohesive and vibrant community. I'm sure there is a way to watch the RP threads and the observation threads and handle any transgressions as they happen, but as AnonyMous pointed out, it's easy to lie about your age or have your age hidden in your profile so things like that are harder to stay on top of.

[Leafeon78]

Than what should be done is that everyone have to put their age in their profile so that can sort out one problem I'm not forcing that or anything but that help on the age limits.

[Mercury]

Than what should be done is that everyone have to put their age in their profile so that can sort out one problem I'm not forcing that or anything but that help on the age limits.

I'm going to weigh my humble opinion in by seconding this, particularly in reference to RPs and such. If an U18 is RPing with an older person then that is their choice, it's not necessarilly exploitation of the U18 because it's referencing characters (which should be overage) not the members themselves, but if either member doesn't have heir age listed then they don't have enough information to make that decision. And I think a U18 unknowingly RPing with a 18+. is probably just as unsettling as a 18+ not knowing if the person they're commmunicating with is U18.

[NameTaken]

For me, I think the ideal would be keep the youth boards and adult boards as they are. Keep the general forum as it is. HOWEVER, have content like obs, wavs, fiction etc. created by those under 18 restricted to the youth board- whilst still allowing youths to view the general boards and comment on the content there as usual- the difference being they can only contribute their own material within the confines of the youth board.

It personally does irk me when I see youth obs (and then adults commenting on them) more than anything else on the forum (wavs/videos as well, of course). For some reason, this just doesn't seem quite the same to me as an adult enjoying the fiction or art contributed by a youth; mostly because I myself never factored age into mattering in fic writing if no explicit adult content is present. I hope this doesn't overstep bounds to say, but I'm pretty sure no one on the forum can deny that the teens are also here with the intent of sexual gratification, at least in some respects- arguably with even more intensity than the adults of the forum, in an attempt to explore and shape their own sexuality. I think it would be super counter-productive to entirely divide adults and minors; I personally am SO grateful for the presence of a range of different age groups in the general boards and learnt a lot about myself and my sexuality by reading posts and discussions amongst some of our awesome adult members, and as far as I remember, I saw veeeery few creepy comments- and the ones I did were often dealt with very well by staff.

The RP boards- I mean, RPing is just not for me and I tend to avoid the boards. Buuut sticking to what I said above, I think RPs amongst minors should be constricted ONLY to minors on the youth board; RPs with adult content constricted to the adult board; and RPs written by adults without any explicit sexual content constricted to the general RP boards. Maybe that will help with removing potentially inappropriate interactions amongst minors and adults?

Still, good thing to debate, and something I've been thinking about in terms of the forum and otherwise. Protecting minors from grooming/harassment/disturbing content is important, but a delicate issue, as teens (especially with our unique interests) are actively seeking sexual content, and I wonder to what extent can we deny them of such content beyond the already established adult/youth/general boards.

[Dusty15]

First and foremost, I am commenting on this as a member and representing only myself and not the Staff.

I cannot speak for those who originally founded or moderated this Forum or created the rules, but it is my understanding that the Forum is open to young adults because this fetish tends to be something people begin to discover and understand as a young adult.

One concern I just thought of is that it's so easy to make an account and say you're thirteen when you're actually much older.

It is also equally easy (and more likely) for a person who is 13-17 to come to an adult-only site and create an account pretending that they are older. By having a Forum that openly allows people under 18, I believe the thought was to create a more honest and safe community. By making it clear that there ARE minors on here, we can better protect them and we can hold adults more accountable.

The issue is that our fetish is inherently PG to the general public (though it may not be to many members) and presents itself in a spectrum of "very sexually charged" to "I find it cute and endearing." When you restrict a community of our nature to 18+, there is an immediate expectation of "fetish-talk" and adult content. This fetish is SO incredibly complex and also so personal for so many of us, a PG community is a better fit. With that comes a variety of ages. I (as a member and not a moderator) cannot see a way that we could fix this without restricting specific populations of members.

As one of the senior staff here, I definitely welcome this discussion and thank you all for your thoughts. Please be assured we take them very seriously and are indeed discussing.

[toastytoast]

As someone underage, I've never seen "sexual" comments anywhere - when reading obs or fiction I notice that generally people keep their more explicit thoughts to themselves. That being said, I've only been here a short while. But still, I've never seen somewhere with "fetish" in the title so spotless. I rarely see the f-word, let alone anything sexual.

[Dusty15]

As someone underage, I've never seen "sexual" comments anywhere - when reading obs or fiction I notice that generally people keep their more explicit thoughts to themselves. That being said, I've only been here a short while. But still, I've never seen somewhere with "fetish" in the title so spotless. I rarely see the f-word, let alone anything sexual.

I think what people are objecting to is the fact that adults and people under 18 are discussing/role-playing sneezing, which has a sexual connotation for many of us. The problem some people have is that they feel like an adult commenting on a 14 year-old's observation about a sneeze is no different than an adult telling a 14 year-old that they look sexy in an outfit.

[Jorm]

I like the idea of keeping obs, stories, and artwork of u18s restricted to the youth board. Not only would it help protect against adults sexualizing minors, it would also protect adults from accidentally stumbling on u18 stuff that they don't want to see. I sometimes get half way through an obs or story before I suddenly discover I've been reading about 15 year olds when I really, really don't want to be.

I do think though, that material posted by u18 members where the subject of the obs/story/artwork is an adult, should still be allowed on the main forum.

[bloom]

I do think though, that material posted by u18 members where the subject of the obs/story/artwork is an adult, should still be allowed on the main forum.

I agree with your whole post (obviously) but am commenting specially to agree with this. I don't see a problem with this at all - I think barring them from this would be unnecessarily harsh and unfair.

If this can't be done, though,

I (as a member and not a moderator) cannot see a way that we could fix this without restricting specific populations of members.

Would it be the worst thing in the world to restrict adults from commenting on U18 obs? It seems really reasonable to me to say something like "If you're over 18, don't comment on the obs of people who are under age 18." That doesn't seem unnecessarily harsh and restrictive to me at all.

I also feel, since it was brought up, that the "Age Unknown" feature of profile is a detrimental thing. It opens up a huge can of worms regarding what is and isn't appropriate with a given member. I mean, sometimes it's obvious they're underage, but other times you just don't know, and I think clarity in that situation would be beneficial.

[Galaxy]

I do think there need to be rules at least for the obs and roleplaying. Because to minors, it may just be wanting to share this experience with other people, and not really seeing anything outright sexual about it (I know I didn't start viewing the fetish really sexually until I was around 17, so I'm sure there's others around here who are the same). But the adults who comment on them know good and well that they're viewing it sexually, and that's what makes it really gross to me.

[•.*°•☆. Q .☆•°*.•]

NameTaken, Jorm, and Galaxy pretty much said exactly everything i was thinking already so i feel like i don't have anything to add, yet, but it makes me really glad this is being talked about. It's very important to me.

[Icarus Rex]

I think it is important to allow minors and adults to share this space, because being a young person with an unconventional sexuality can be confusing and isolating for a lot of people. Being able to discuss it to some extent with other teenagers and adults who have more or less already processed that experience can have a really positive effect on young people who probably don't have any other outlet for discussing something like this. (I see that most people aren't suggesting making the forum strictly 18+, but it's been mentioned in the past.)

HOWEVER.

Unfortunately, there will always be some adult member, floating around out there, who sees the inclusiveness of the forum as an open invitation to engage in predatory behavior. And while it seems like policing that on a case-to-case basis should be pretty effective, we have no real way of knowing what takes place in PMs, off-forum, etc., as a result of unrestricted access to u18 material here. I think that limiting nonfictional content (obs, wavs) generated by u18 members to be viewable only to them makes a lot of sense, provided they weren't restricted from participating in the broader forum as a result. I don't see any reason that fiction, art, and obs featuring non-minors should be restricted, regardless of the creator's age. Because of the interactive nature of RPs, I wouldn't mind seeing those restricted to the Youth Board when appropriate, as well.

Bearing in mind that all members can still do whatever the hell they like, off-site, so encouraging younger members to be mindful of their privacy and, moreso, making it VERY clear to potential offenders that predatory behavior will not be tolerated in this community are important pieces to this, as well.

ETA: A lot of reiterating here, but still.