Inappropriate interactions with underage members

[SexualOddity]

I think that the issue about validation is an important one. This is a busy forum and a lot of people know one another already, for someone who is perhaps a little nervous and coming to understand their fetish for the first time, it can be very difficult to build up relationships and find the confidence to become a part of the community. If I hadn't have been writing stories, I think I would have struggled to get to even sixty posts without giving up on being able to make a mark. I actually did make two different profiles (Shh! Don't tell the staff!) before this one, both of which I abandoned for that very reason. It was only when I started writing that I really felt able to meet people and interact and build up some confidence in the community and myself as a part of it - and I was in my twenties!

I do think that some separation is needed, but for the reasons above I'd be in favour of allowing U18's to post obs, fic and art on the main board if the subject is over 18, as Icarus suggested above.

[Sitruuna]

Than what should be done is that everyone have to put their age in their profile so that can sort out one problem I'm not forcing that or anything but that help on the age limits.

No. Absolutely not. It used to be that way but not needing to have your age in your profile is a matter of personal privacy and security.

//I haven't read all the posts in this thread yet but most of it all seems really over-patronising and demeaning to the U18 members. I have never understood this idea that peopl under the age of 18 need some sort of special protection from stuff they are anyway thinking about and searching for by thmselves and interested in at least as much as 18+ people are. I understand that there needs to be sort of restrictions because of leagal reasons but separating U18 members and 18+ members from casual and/or fetish-related-non-18+ discussion is unfare to the U18 members. It's like telling them they are incapable of thinking for themselves, looking after themselves and understanding what is and isn't good for them.

I come from a society where 15 year olds have legal responsibility and are not requiered to, for example, tell their parents/guardians of the medical care they've got. They don't have all the same rights 18+ year old people have but they are still understood to be capable of understanding the consequences of their actions and to make decisions for themselves. It is also fully legal for someone over the age of 18 to... do sexual things with someone who is 16 (or older). I'm saying all this to give you people some sort of idea of the background I have since it obviously also affects my opinion on this matter. U18s are independent thinkers who do not need over-patronising.

[Anonymouse]

I like the idea of keeping obs, stories, and artwork of u18s restricted to the youth board. Not only would it help protect against adults sexualizing minors, it would also protect adults from accidentally stumbling on u18 stuff that they don't want to see. I sometimes get half way through an obs or story before I suddenly discover I've been reading about 15 year olds when I really, really don't want to be.

I do think though, that material posted by u18 members where the subject of the obs/story/artwork is an adult, should still be allowed on the main forum.

This. Nothing worse than looking through obs for a specific purpose and finding that it starts with "So at school the other day" or "I was hanging out with my friends during the lunch period." Blech.

[tma]

One of the biggest hurdles that I can think of = the non-age people, because then Staff are going to have to sit there and split hairs.

Back in Ye Olden Days I can remember addressing some issues of what were felt to be inappropriate 18+ comments on U18 threads on an individual basis. HOWEVER.... this is back when the forum was very young and there were a lot fewer people. I'm not trying to suggest to Staff that is how things should be done now. Also, Staff currently allowed to act if there is an incident(s) where they feel that there is sexualization.

Doing what is proposed would mean that U18s could no longer write "Mixed Obs" (mixture of students and teacher(s) in the same thread. They couldn't post obs or RPs or stories of people their own age until they are validated. What about animae characters (re: drawings)? 18+ people wouldn't even be allowed to say anything completely benign that might encourage someone with their writing or drawing. They wouldn't be able to say, "That is cute that you got to see that from your crush" (which wouldn't be inappropriate)

I'm ALL for coming down on the creeps. Absolutely!! I have a 14 year old and an 11 year old, and I consider myself to be protective of U18s. The muddy area is honestly if one wishes to be technical, even having U18s on fetish forum can be a "problem". Various members have even expressed that opinion over the years. PMs and Chat seem like it would be more problematic- particularly private chat.

The age of consent isn't even the same in all countries. The forum in terms of some of what is allowed has gone with the US standard.

I personally feel that whatever happens that there should be a balance of respect that U18 are also members, as well as a realization that there are people who SHOULD know better than to say certain things and just don't or won't. Protection AND respect is a *very* tough balance. I wish the Staff all the best as they consider these issues.

[Nola]

I just wanted to weigh in here as well, though a lot of it will also be in agreement with what has been said before.

I think it is important to allow minors and adults to share this space, because being a young person with an unconventional sexuality can be confusing and isolating for a lot of people. Being able to discuss it to some extent with other teenagers and adults who have more or less already processed that experience can have a really positive effect on young people who probably don't have any other outlet for discussing something like this.

This is gold to me for two reasons: I didn't discover what a 'fetish' was until about 20 (and lurked here for quite some time before joining), and even though I was an adult, legally, I still was pretty un-processed, and so I can relate to what many new members, younger and not so young, feel when they come here for the first time. Someone also mentioned the 'PG type' of site we have and I would really hate to lose that. Because, honestly, if I had entered, even at 20 and just saw fetish and sexual things splashed everywhere, I never would have come back!

The second thing about Icarus's post is that I think when younger people have the opportunity to post in more places (not that I think they should post in every place), they are able to gain trusting and meaningful relationships with older members, which I think is very valuable. It is a scary thing, obviously, to be approached by a creep, but if you trust an older member, you have someone you feel you can immediately go to, instead of maybe a staff member you don't know as well, or something. And that trusted adult can then help the younger member get through the proper steps of reporting said creep, or maybe even telling said creep off. Honestly, it is one of my favorite things about this forum, how protective people are with the younger members. We adults have the responsibility as tma said above, to watch out for each other, especially the ones that are new, naive, and young.

It was only when I started writing that I really felt able to meet people and interact and build up some confidence in the community and myself as a part of it - and I was in my twenties!

This separates me from my train of thought, but it is something I super relate to, so I had to quote it - it is how I felt, exactly.

Okay, back to my point - I'm on board for the youth board handling U18 posts about U18 people. I understand that not all adults who post on them are sexual predators, in fact, I don't think I've seen more than a couple 'creepy' posts, but it still is an area that is perhaps, 'risky' to be left out in the open. The only thing stopping me from full agreement is that the U18 members must first wait to be validated to post there, which for some, can feel like it's a really long wait. (This is not against the staff in any way, my validation process was fast as lightning, after only 60 posts). But, I wouldn't want the younger members to feel unwelcome and I think for a lot of them, posting about their obs is exciting, meaningful and maybe the easiest way for them to feel a part of the forum.

The RP section is something I don't feel I can weigh in on, because I do not get into it, and I don't understand it. I'm not sure why adults would want to RP with 13/14/15 yr. olds, but then I'm not sure why anyone would want to RP, so, there's that.

It's like telling them they are incapable of thinking for themselves, looking after themselves and understanding what is and isn't good for them.

U18s are independent thinkers who do not need over-patronising.

The problem with these statements is that they are not exclusively true. But, before I begin, I will say that there are a lot of U18 members here that I'm very impressed with, their maturity is astounding, they are considerate, thoughtful and very valued members of this community. I don't want to seem that I think they need coddling, protected or that they cannot think for themselves, but it makes sense to have a way of protecting them anyways, a safeguard, if you will, just in case. Because, there is a notable difference between say someone who is 15 and someone who is 24, (and between someone who is 22 and someone who is 29 and even between 17 yr. olds and other 17 yr olds of course and so on). Much as I want to allow each individual to speak for themselves, for their maturity and how much protection each person feels they need, that isn't going to work very well.

Personally, i think even drawing the line at 18 is sometimes a stretch, because many 18 yr. olds are hardly mature or responsible enough to be considered adults, and yet, in America, we let them go off to war. Even a lot of 21 yr. olds lack the maturity to have the ability to drink legally, and in America we do that too. My point is, no 'age' will ever be the perfect amount of maturity, sexual or otherwise, but we have to pick something that works for as many people as possible. And I don't think it's 15, or even 17. So, 18 is as good as we'll probably get.

I hope this makes some sense, but it probably doesn't.

I personally feel that whatever happens that there should be a balance of respect that U18 are also members, as well as a realization that there are people who SHOULD know better than to say certain things and just don't or won't. Protection AND respect is a *very* tough balance. I wish the Staff all the best as they consider these issues.

But this is kind of a good way to sum up what I feel. Thanks tma. <3

[tma]

Random thought - how many people over say age 30 RP?? I honestly have no idea. I personally don't RP and I don't read the RPs but it *seems* like the people who mainly RP are teens and 20s. I'd feel like it would be creepier to have a say... 35 year old RPing the character of a teen within an sf RP or having their character do stuff to a person's character that is a teenage character. Versus like if there was a SPN thing (I don't know the fandom- but it is hella popular) and a 35 year old was RPing an adult character and a 14 year old was RPing an adult character. I would *think* that then the "getting into the RP" would be about ing over the *characters* who are of age versus sexualizing the specific RPer.

Then again. I have little to no clue of what the "normal" RP is around here.

[Sitruuna]

Random thought - how many people over say age 30 RP??

I checked the first page of the rp sub earlier today (not all the pages in the threads there since the rps can be very long) and there seems to be mostly a certain few members in all of them. These members are all 15-17. Then there are some members between the ages 18 and 21 who also take part in the rps quite frequenly. There is also one 23 year old member who appear in a couple of the rps and one who had their age unspecified. In the Avengers rp there was one 40+ year old participant but he was the only member who say they are 30 years or older who I saw there. The members who actively take part in the games probably know better.

I would *think* that then the "getting into the RP" would be about ing over the *characters* who are of age versus sexualizing the specific RPer.

This is basically what I was saying in the other thread but apparently it's not good enough because "we can't know for sure who is thinking what" or something along those lines.

[SpamKey]

Random thought - how many people over say age 30 RP??

I checked the first page of the rp sub earlier today (not all the pages in the threads there since the rps can be very long) and there seems to be mostly a certain few members in all of them. These members are all 15-17. Then there are some members between the ages 18 and 21 who also take part in the rps quite frequenly. There is also one 23 year old member who appear in a couple of the rps and one who had their age unspecified. In the Avengers rp there was one 40+ year old participant but he was the only member who say they are 30 years or older who I saw there. The members who actively take part in the games probably know better.

I would *think* that then the "getting into the RP" would be about ing over the *characters* who are of age versus sexualizing the specific RPer.

This is basically what I was saying in the other thread but apparently it's not good enough because "we can't know for sure who is thinking what" or something along those lines.

I think that last comment was directed at me... So I'll try to sum up my previous post in the Pit.

Basically what I said is that, in theory, the idea of RP'ing being for the characters and not the RP'ers is a sound one. It's how I personally RP, and most people on here, probably. BUT there is no way to tell when a person is thinking more of the RP'er, rather than the character. I used the example of people asking for girl RP'ers only. If they mean girl characters, fine. If they mean girl RP'ers specifically, that means the RP partner matters. Whether this is because they just feel more comfortable RP'ing with girls or they are thinking of the RP'er sexually, it's difficult to tell. It's even more difficult to distinguish the two when age is the question, not gender.

That was more a reiteration of the issue than my opinion, but I'm personally in favor of restricting obs/wavs/vids of younger members to the Youth Board. RP's are a more difficult question because, like Sitruuna said, it should be more about the characters. But the problem is that there's no way to tell if it really is about the characters.

I want to say that most people on this board are probably lovely people who would never dream of exploiting a minor sexually. But the fact of the matter is, this is a fetish board. For all the good people on here, there's gonna be some creeps. As far as RP's are concerned, maybe just individual policing would be a better policy.

[tma]

Thanks for explaining that. I wasn't trying to be a dork, I just was going by what I assumed was the "normal" RP thing and then it confused me a little about what would be the issue if say I (as an person) was RPing a "Sherlock" character with a 15 year old.

RPs with original characters (**especially** if characters are u18) I could understand people having more qualms about.

The other thing to me that is a tricky balance is protection and freedom. I NEVER, EVER want to have people be in a situation where bad thing are/ might happen.

But I do think that while having a "meh- age is always *only* a number" thing can be very problematic, if the forum goes too far to the other end it might end up almost "thought-policing" . I hope that I'm not appearing dismissive to anyone. There are some greys for me, and people who differ in where they personally feel most comfortable can all have the best intentions in mind. I feel like we ALL (or 99% of us) want a good balance, just different points on the continuum.

[Oolia]

I like the idea of keeping obs, stories, and artwork of u18s restricted to the youth board. Not only would it help protect against adults sexualizing minors, it would also protect adults from accidentally stumbling on u18 stuff that they don't want to see. I sometimes get half way through an obs or story before I suddenly discover I've been reading about 15 year olds when I really, really don't want to be.

This exactly. It's happened to me as well and it really irks me to no end.

We talk a lot about wanting to protect the younger members, and it's obviously our first and foremost goal, but I think we also need to talk about the fact that it makes browsing the forum as an adult sort of a minefield, and it affects our enjoyment of it.

I'm 100% for limiting the publishing of any underage material and RPs to the youth board.

[Oolia]

Random thought - how many people over say age 30 RP?? I honestly have no idea. I personally don't RP and I don't read the RPs but it *seems* like the people who mainly RP are teens and 20s.

Maybe we should consider the fact that the reason why no adults over 30 RP on the forum is because they are afraid underage members will join in Maybe it's not the case, but I just thought I'd mention it.

[Natto]

Random thought - how many people over say age 30 RP?? I honestly have no idea. I personally don't RP and I don't read the RPs but it *seems* like the people who mainly RP are teens and 20s.

Maybe we should consider the fact that the reason why no adults over 30 RP on the forum is because they are afraid underage members will join in Maybe it's not the case, but I just thought I'd mention it.

That's true for me! I like RP-ing and I like doing fic exchanges and things like that--and anime, which is a big part of how I experience my fetish, and which is also popular amongst teenagers. Such is life. Anyway, I feel like I can't really state that I want to do these things because I'll end up getting responses from people who are under 18. I don't really know how to reject people delicately, so part of me wants to just not post anything at all.

Meanwhile, I'm probably on the ace spectrum, I don't want to engage with anybody sexually here, and hanging around the 18+ board means I will likely have to come across that type of content and interaction. I'm 27 and it's way more important to me that minors be protected from that sort of thing than that I be, but it still puts me in an awkward position where I feel like in order to engage with adults, I have to deal with creepy, predatory behavior from dudes.

I don't know what the answer is exactly. I don't want to make the forum impossible to use for minors. It's important that they have a safe place to actually explore their unconventional sexuality. I found this place when I was 19, so not a minor, but it would have been wonderful to have something like this when I was younger. And I think most of us adults can be trusted to interact in an appropriate way with u18's...but clearly that's not always the case.

Maybe we should have some kind of warning system in place for inappropriate interactions, the way we do with other forum violations? How staff will determine what is and isn't appropriate is another matter, but a warning system might be a way to approach it?

[Leafeon78]

A warning system for adults RP with younger members or both younger as well I'm confused too much info to keep track of.

[Natto]

What I meant was a warning system for adults interacting with people who are under 18 in inappropriate ways. I don't think this particular discussion is dealing with how minors interact with each other.

[Sharpie]

Hello. Younger member speaking, er, typing. I don't't quite know what to request for the observations, however I do have a suggestion for the RPing. Though I'm not big on RPing and I am new to the forum, maybe, you could seperate adult roleplays from youth roleplays? Adult roleplays aren't required to include any sexual content, it simply includes members above the age of eighteen. I dunno... my reasoning might be flawed but this is just me thinking aloud.

[Leafeon78]

Thank you it was just to much information I couldn't make sense of it that's why asked but I do agree now that it makes sense but how it is delt with totally a different thing. Im just saying the staff do a lot for this forum they not long separated rp board to it's own but everyone's opinion matters.

[Sawyer]

I haven't felt the need to weigh in here much because a lot of you are coming from the same place that I am, and I didn't want to be redundant.

Still, I felt like I should address a few points in this post since nobody else has yet -- just from a scientific perspective.

It's like telling them they are incapable of thinking for themselves, looking after themselves and understanding what is and isn't good for them.

This is literally, scientifically true. They are not fully capable.

Adolescents are obviously more developed when it comes to logic and critical thinking than children under age 13, but they are still not yet fully developed. They are objectively less experienced and less developed, and it's important for adults to help create a safe environment for them to -- in this specific instance -- figure out and explore their sexualities. This includes doing what we can to make sure they aren't violated by people who are monumentally different from them on both social and neurological terms. No, teenagers are not totally incompetent, but they are not on the same level that adults are. Here is one of many sources that backs up these statements.

they are still understood to be capable of understanding the consequences of their actions and to make decisions for themselves. It is also fully legal for someone over the age of 18 to... do sexual things with someone who is 16 (or older).

I don't know where you live, but in the USA we have something called a "Romeo and Juliet law", which permits an adult to sexually engage with a minor so long as they are no more than a few years apart (I think the exact number varies by state). I wouldn't be against employing that sort of rule here, although I do understand that it could be hard to regulate.

[Sitruuna]

This is literally, scientifically true. They are not fully capable.

Adolescents are obviously more developed when it comes to logic and critical thinking than children under age 13, but they are still not yet fully developed. They are objectively less experienced and less developed, and it's important for adults to help create a safe environment for them to -- in this specific instance -- figure out and explore their sexualities. This includes doing what we can to make sure they aren't violated by people who are monumentally different from them on both social and neurological terms. No, teenagers are not totally incompetent, but they are not on the same level that adults are.

Did I say "fully developed" or "capable of thinking for themselves"? I know that your brain isn't fully developed yet even at age 18 and of course they (usually) are less experienced but I also do know that if you don't coddle them they are not as stupid as people (especially here) think they are.

[Sawyer]

Did I say "fully developed" or "capable of thinking for themselves"? I know that your brain isn't fully developed yet even at age 18 and of course they (usually) are less experienced but I also do know that if you don't coddle them they are not as stupid as people (especially here) think they are.

How is stopping adults from making inappropriate sexual comments about them "coddling" them? Until they ARE fully developed, it's nice to be able to provide a safe space for them.

Besides, this topic isn't covering U18 behavior necessarily -- the focus is on adult behavior specifically.

[•.*°•☆. Q .☆•°*.•]

This is literally, scientifically true. They are not fully capable.

Adolescents are obviously more developed when it comes to logic and critical thinking than children under age 13, but they are still not yet fully developed. They are objectively less experienced and less developed, and it's important for adults to help create a safe environment for them to -- in this specific instance -- figure out and explore their sexualities. This includes doing what we can to make sure they aren't violated by people who are monumentally different from them on both social and neurological terms. No, teenagers are not totally incompetent, but they are not on the same level that adults are.

Did I say "fully developed" or "capable of thinking for themselves"? I know that your brain isn't fully developed yet even at age 18 and of course they (usually) are less experienced but I also do know that if you don't coddle them they are not as stupid as people (especially here) think they are.

No one's calling teens stupid. What people ARE saying is it's important to note that teens are less experienced than adults, have heightened emotions and less processing ability so it can be a confusing and difficult time, teens are generally more trusting than adults, and adults are in a societal position of power over teens. All of which means that if there is some adult or another (not that i have yet seen one but it's worth mentioning) on the boards who wishes to use these things to their advantage against a teen, they're in a position to do so.

However, MOST IMPORTANTLY, it means that all adults have a responsibility to make sure that any time they're interacting with someone underage, that they are creating a safe and appropriate environment for said teen.

Along these lines, it makes sense to keep u18 obs and roleplays by u18 members in the youth category, away from potentially inappropriate responses. (And as several adults have noted, to protect any adults from accidentally having to see any obs that are u18 and getting squicked by it.) This is NOT to say that teens would be restricted from posting comments on obs, or on stories or etc, bc those things don't present the same sort of societal power imbalance as the aforementioned things do.

edit: to connect a train of thought that went astray, and because what is spelling, even.

[Sitruuna]

Did I say "fully developed" or "capable of thinking for themselves"? I know that your brain isn't fully developed yet even at age 18 and of course they (usually) are less experienced but I also do know that if you don't coddle them they are not as stupid as people (especially here) think they are.

How is stopping adults from making inappropriate sexual comments about them "coddling" them? Until they ARE fully developed, it's nice to be able to provide a safe space for them.

Besides, this topic isn't covering U18 behavior necessarily -- the focus is on adult behavior specifically.

Topics discussed and things suggested in this topic so far:

- restricting all stories, obs and artwork (and wavs and videos but that part is understandable) by U18 members to the youth board

- not letting U18 members and 18+ members roleplay together

- how it's wrong for someone who's 18+ to enjoy and comment something made by an U18 member not because of the content but because it's been made by a "kid" and thus is not for adults (even if this "something" is about an adult character, apparently)

Someone did suggest that maybe we could restrict the stories, obs, art, wavs and videos that are about an U18 character/person to the youth board and that's reasonable enough but the "lets restrict all youth activity [aside from off topic and maybe general discussion] to the youth board" idea seems to be a bit more common. Or maybe that's just the impression I got.

But you are right. Some of these comments have sounded more like people find having the U18 members posting in the general obs, stories and artwork boards and in the wavs section (why is that allowed?) inconveniences them as people who are not interested in obs, stories or art about U18 people/characters (as a side note I would like to point out that we've had 18+ members posting art/stories about their original, U18 characters) and thus want them gone. Because they are an inconvenience.

[bloom]

Someone did suggest that maybe we could restrict the stories, obs, art, wavs and videos that are about an U18 character/person to the youth board

To be clear, this is what I would advocate for. My previous phrasing might have made it seem like any obs/story/art written by a U18 person should go in the Youth Board, but that isn't what I meant by it, I just meant only those containing actual U18 material. Restricting youth contributions completely in that way would be very over the top, in my opinion. Sorry if there was any confusion.

[Sitruuna]

Someone did suggest that maybe we could restrict the stories, obs, art, wavs and videos that are about an U18 character/person to the youth board

To be clear, this is what I would advocate for. My previous phrasing might have made it seem like any obs/story/art written by a U18 person should go in the Youth Board, but that isn't what I meant by it, I just meant only those containing actual U18 material. Restricting youth contributions completely in that way would be very over the top, in my opinion. Sorry if there was any confusion.

I am curious: would this also include fanart and fanfiction? We have, for example, a lot of anime fans here and as it happens most of the popular anime series are about U18 characters (who can easily look older than that or very ambiguous). And then there are characters whose age isn't really specified at any point and judging by both their actions and appearance they could just as well be 16 or 18.

So.

Only original characters or also fan art/fiction?

[NoV]

Maybe its my rapidly advancing years, but am I the only one you doesn't really know what RPing is or even how to RP? Either way it puts me nicely in the clear regarding this controversial issue. Its not a part of the board I show my head

[Sitruuna]

Maybe its my rapidly advancing years, but am I the only one you doesn't really know what RPing is or even how to RP? Either way it puts me nicely in the clear regarding this controversial issue. Its not a part of the board I show my head

If you are interested in knowing what it is and how to do it, I can tell you.