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Compulsory age (range) on profiles?


Heathcliff

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Adults accidentally discussing things they wouldn't normally with a minor, because they don't realize the person is a minor, is ultimately not particularly dangerous as far as I can see. It's the adults who are looking for sexual interaction with minors that are a real concern, and having minors be required to list themselves as minors, is only going to make it easier for those people. If I was a minor on this forum, I sure as hell wouldn't want to post my age, it'd be like putting a big neon target for pedophiles on my forehead. Allowing minors to keep their age hidden probably protects them more than making them share it would.

The this previously stated reason, I'm infinitely more comfortable on a forum where people are not required to publicly state their age, or age range, so I'm very glad to see a "Not Telling" option. And seeing someone use that definitely isn't going to make me assume anything negative about them unless it's combined with questionable content in their posts. Outside of things like self-obs I barely look at people's ages most of the time anyway, unless something they've posted something that makes me wonder for one reason or another.

Maybe I'm just weird, but I'm actually more comfortable putting in my exact age than using a range.

I'm not sure what makes me uncomfortable about it either, but I feel the same. I mean, since the field is optional, it's not really a problem, but for some reason it does make me more inclined to not fill it out, or use the "Not Telling" option.

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Yeah, I mean I had my age filled in before, so I obviously didn't have a problem sharing my age, but with the age range thing I just don't feel comfortable using it, and I don't see myself filling it out. It's a shame though, because I'm perfectly willing to disclose my age and I would always want people to have the option of avoiding me if my age made them uncomfortable for any reason. Sure anyone can ask me how old I am and I'd be happy to tell them, but I doubt most people would actually PM me to ask.

Since the age range is a drop down menu, maybe just under the current options there could be additional options to select a specific age, anywhere from 13 to 100. This would let people use a specific age or a range according to their preferences, and still keep everything in one field.

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I'm really not sure how this is any kind of fix, given the non-requisite nature of the update. At best, you've added an extra step for the entire forum to complete in order to get to the same baseline they were already at. Many people will never bother with the extra few clicks. The members that were in the grey area will, I suspect, still firmly settle there.

Also, seconding the sentiment that I'd rather provide an exact age than a range. It annoys me, and I'd rather just not fill it out at all. Also also, seconding the opinion that anyone who specifically selects "Not Telling", after all this, now speaks to me of someone who has something to hide. I don't care what your reasons are.

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I also just realized that I find the 13-17 range problematic. To me there's a big difference between 13 and 16 or 17, in terms of what sorts of subjects are appropriate in conversation. I have (and see) no problem talking about most subjects with 16 and 17 year olds, (as long as they're alright with it, obviously, as with anyone) whereas with younger members, there are topics I try to avoid for various reasons.

I don't know... The more I think about it, the less I like the age range system... And I'm kind of disturbed by the reactions to the "Not Telling" option... I'm definitely favor of at least keeping the option of providing a specific age available.

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I'm really not sure how this is any kind of fix, given the non-requisite nature of the update. At best, you've added an extra step for the entire forum to complete in order to get to the same baseline they were already at. Many people will never bother with the extra few clicks. The members that were in the grey area will, I suspect, still firmly settle there.

Also, seconding the sentiment that I'd rather provide an exact age than a range. It annoys me, and I'd rather just not fill it out at all. Also also, seconding the opinion that anyone who specifically selects "Not Telling", after all this, now speaks to me of someone who has something to hide. I don't care what your reasons are.

I said I wouldn't keep dragging this out, but I have to echo this entire post.

It just seems like all of this discussion was honestly, completely wasted. What the solution was to "We want to be able to see who is a minor and who is not" was to repackage the exact current system and present it as something new, and... It isn't. The system before was "display your age or don't," and the system now is "display your age range or don't." The "or don't" bit was the part people generally had a problem with, as far as I could tell. Honestly, I would be happy with a "minor/overage" selection option to be displayed next to peoples' posts with an optional age field that people could still list as '00' if they want to.

Another issue is that most of the members of the forum might not even see the new system and so their age fields are now completely blank, which is also a problem.

The new system also completely ignores situations like the one Heathcliff posted several pages back:

Look- I was just thinking, it is clear that ages of members are important on this forum (not just because of recent discussions but because of staff rules!) If an under 18 member goes into the chat, and I go in and start talking about sneezing with them, the staff will tell me off if they see it. (That has happened to me before: a 17-year-old girl in chat was trying to bring up the subject of sneezing; I was gently warned not to participate by a member of staff there at the time).

Tell me: what do you think the staff member should have done in that situation, had the girl put her age as '00'?

I mean, this kind of thing goes completely unaddressed with the new system, and nobody from Staff said what should happen in a case like this. I mean, the answer is probably "err on the side of caution," but I just don't know if that's good enough on a sexual fetish forum.

I don't know. I'm really, genuinely not out to be an asshole or to make Staff's job difficult and I realize this isn't a democracy, but since things were changed, I understand that Staff took peoples' comments here into consideration. I just don't see how the new system changes anything at all.

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I always have and always will be very grateful to the staff for their hard work, time and dedication. I really appreciate that you listen when we have complaints or suggestions and donate your time to what I'm sure is often a thankless job! But I have to agree with Shayla/Garnet/Jorm/Junia - I really don't like the change. If an age range was an additional or alternative then sure, I think it's a great idea - but I really would prefer to know the exact age (where people are okay sharing it). There is a big difference between a 13yo and a 17yo, and even between an 18yo and a 24yo. I like the idea of the drop down menu containing range options as well as specific ages, so people can choose...but honestly I don't mind things as they were. Yes, it sucks to accidentally see an underage obs if it makes you uncomfortable, and yes, underage members need to be protected - but I still think it's important for them to be able to participate on the normal boards as they have been if they are allowed on the forum at all (which I support wholeheartedly). I do think that the best balance had already been reached, and that the change makes it harder, not easier, to interact with people. In real life we have visual cues as to someone's age; here we only have the provided information, which is now less useful.

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Though I sometimes feel I haven’t been here long enough to put forward thoughts on how things might be done, I did wish to add my thanks to the staff for addressing some really tough grey areas with such care and concern.

I also do agree with a few of the points mentioned above. It seemed the threads that instigated these discussions were calling for greater transparency when it came to member interactions (around age), and the result seems to be a move toward reduced transparency.

Given the choice, I would also prefer to display my exact age, though I am perfectly happy for others to use an age-category option if they feel more comfortable doing so. For me, this is just a personal preference around giving people a more specific context about myself, and allowing them to interact with me in a way that they deem appropriate whilst having this information upfront.

Recalling my own attitudes at 16/17, I may not have been comfortable using the 13-17 category, as I wouldn’t have wanted to be misconstrued as being younger if I were at the older end of the spectrum. So, I wonder if some younger members (particularly incoming members who we haven't gotten to know yet) may feel less inclined to use this option at all (adding to the original concern of over-18 members wishing to ensure age-appropriate interactions), than if the exact-age option were also still available, or perhaps, 13-15 and 16-17 categories?

Even at 17, I would not have wished to have the kind of conversations that might arise on a forum such as this, with someone 3-4 years younger than me, compared to someone in my peer group.

But yes, I just wanted to say again that I do genuinely appreciate this is a sensitive issue, with many factors to take into consideration, and it continually amazes me how open and committed the staff here are to taking feedback on board to keep the community safe and welcoming.

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Yeh I kinda do agree that there is a difference between being 13 yo and 16 or 17.

For the record, I would much rather put 16, my exact age instead of an age range but we cant all have what we want.

The staff have done a good job trying to keep a balance that everyone likes.

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I like the idea of the drop down menu containing range options as well as specific ages, so people can choose...but honestly I don't mind things as they were. Yes, it sucks to accidentally see an underage obs if it makes you uncomfortable, and yes, underage members need to be protected - but I still think it's important for them to be able to participate on the normal boards as they have been if they are allowed on the forum at all (which I support wholeheartedly). I do think that the best balance had already been reached,

yes.gif

I guessing that drop-down *and* fill-in more than likely isn't a possibility (although I have no idea). It would be great- but it seems like it'd be really complex.

It would be *nice* if everyone posted their age. However, while I personally might not completely understand the reasons that people are uncomfortable posting their age- they are. Yes, I'm sure that *some* of the people who don't and/or won't have less than stellar motives. However, there are some long-standing (some a decade of more) members who have never (to my knowledge) even remotely had any of the types of issues that would indicate an safety problem.

I think that Staff really has tried to accommodate people with this. Trying to address these concerns and have a balance. I think that the idea of an age range was a good thought to try to encourage more people participate and give other members at least a general idea. Sometimes though, it is hard to anticipate all the potential issues and glitches that might come up. Especially when it is something new.

Anyway... just my random thoughts. I appreciate that there have been several "bigger" / more complex type issues that Staff has been working with all at the same time and it is a lot of work for not a lot of pay (or *any* pay :P ). I absolutely have faith that they will continue to try to make things better and better. You can never make everyone happy, but Staff tries to make a good balance.

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I always have and always will be very grateful to the staff for their hard work, time and dedication. I really appreciate that you listen when we have complaints or suggestions and donate your time to what I'm sure is often a thankless job! But I have to agree with Shayla/Garnet/Jorm/Junia - I really don't like the change. If an age range was an additional or alternative then sure, I think it's a great idea - but I really would prefer to know the exact age (where people are okay sharing it). There is a big difference between a 13yo and a 17yo, and even between an 18yo and a 24yo. I like the idea of the drop down menu containing range options as well as specific ages, so people can choose...but honestly I don't mind things as they were. Yes, it sucks to accidentally see an underage obs if it makes you uncomfortable, and yes, underage members need to be protected - but I still think it's important for them to be able to participate on the normal boards as they have been if they are allowed on the forum at all (which I support wholeheartedly). I do think that the best balance had already been reached, and that the change makes it harder, not easier, to interact with people. In real life we have visual cues as to someone's age; here we only have the provided information, which is now less useful.

I second all of Kiwi's comments. While I am grateful for the staff's constant vigilance and paying heed to changing times and needs of the forum, I don't think this makes it any better for the issue that was being discussed. The 'not telling' option might be helpful for minors who understand that they are in a place where they could easily be sharked, but I feel that most minors here don't actually understand that. This is from personal experience as well as from hearing stories from other members who were young and inexperienced at some point. It definitely is a thing that happens right now.

Another thing is that you can usually tell when a member is young from what they say. I was definitely not very careful with my presence here when I was fourteen, or even when I was seventeen. Even if the age is set at 'not telling,' it's very possible still to guess their general age. If the goal here was to protect minors, then this does not do a very good job.

Junia's point here sums up the difference pretty well:

The system before was "display your age or don't," and the system now is "display your age range or don't."

If anything, the new system might actually be even more counterproductive, given the targeted age group we are hoping will use it. I understand and am glad that the staff is discussing this and is trying to provide better alternatives, but the more I don't think this is good fix at all.

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Possible solution:In your "about" section of your profile you can put your specific age? Seems to me that way everyone wins. :)

kudus us to the staff for all they've done regarding this situation. You guys are doing a great job. Thank you!!

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I just want to add, because I neglected to before, that while I have issues/concerns with what's happened here, I do really appreciate how willing the staff here is to respond to suggestions and concerns raised by members. Not to mention the amount of time I know all of you spend discussing things like this behind the scenes, on top of the everyday moderating you already do.

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I just want to add, because I neglected to before, that while I have issues/concerns with what's happened here, I do really appreciate how willing the staff here is to respond to suggestions and concerns raised by members. Not to mention the amount of time I know all of you spend discussing things like this behind the scenes, on top of the everyday moderating you already do.

THIS I am willing to agree with 110 %! Our staff is just outstanding. :D

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I've just read the recent responses in this thread... hmm. I feel a bit silly now.

I still appreciate the efforts of the staff, but when I replied yesterday and said "great compromise", I hadn't thought about the fact that the age range feature has replaced the ability to post a precise age on your basic information. I thought it was basically fine because there is a separate age field on your profile page; but now I've realised that one is only displayed if you are also displaying your birthday- and it has never been my intent to coerce people to display that if they don't want to.

I kind of wish I had never posted this damn request now- I'm sorry if people think this has actually lead to a change for the worse. But in my defence, a lot of people replied to this thread in support- it was definitely not just me who wanted a change to do with age information.

I might try to shut up in this thread now; there are enough people putting in their opinions anyway.

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I'm really not sure how this is any kind of fix, given the non-requisite nature of the update. At best, you've added an extra step for the entire forum to complete in order to get to the same baseline they were already at. Many people will never bother with the extra few clicks. The members that were in the grey area will, I suspect, still firmly settle there.

Also, seconding the sentiment that I'd rather provide an exact age than a range. It annoys me, and I'd rather just not fill it out at all. Also also, seconding the opinion that anyone who specifically selects "Not Telling", after all this, now speaks to me of someone who has something to hide. I don't care what your reasons are.

I said I wouldn't keep dragging this out, but I have to echo this entire post.

It just seems like all of this discussion was honestly, completely wasted. What the solution was to "We want to be able to see who is a minor and who is not" was to repackage the exact current system and present it as something new, and... It isn't. The system before was "display your age or don't," and the system now is "display your age range or don't." The "or don't" bit was the part people generally had a problem with, as far as I could tell.

yes.gif

I agree with all of this and the same people who didn't put their age in the first place won't do it now for whatever reason. Also some people who put their age in public display in the first place won't take the time to put their age range so it's like we took a step back instead of forward.

EDIT: I'm sorry I tried to quote Garnet but it only quoted Junia but yes, kudos to Garnet too! :D

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I kind of wish I had never posted this damn request now- I'm sorry if people think this has actually lead to a change for the worse. But in my defence, a lot of people replied to this thread in support- it was definitely not just me who wanted a change to do with age information.

There's no reason to apologize; I think we all assumed we would be able to either put an age range OR an actual age. The idea was to mandate everyone to put something, either real age OR age range in order to prevent anyone from engaging in fetish talk with U18 without knowing it (or reading their obs).

I do appreciate the staff working hard on this issue and listening to us, and I assume this problem wasn't foreseen when the age ranges were implemented. But really, thank you for trying to find a compromise!

That said, I do have to agree with Blah and Junia; the inclusion of "Not telling" defeats the purpose we had in mind.

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I kind of wish I had never posted this damn request now- I'm sorry if people think this has actually lead to a change for the worse. But in my defence, a lot of people replied to this thread in support- it was definitely not just me who wanted a change to do with age information.

Don't feel that way - you started an important dialogue and clearly a lot of members agreed that something should be changed in regards to how the age information is dealt with. The fact that the decision is something a lot of us don't feel is an improvement isn't your fault; this isn't what you suggested to begin with. You haven't done anything wrong.

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Alright, here's my spiel on the whole matter, now that everything's been sealed and stamped. I like the idea of the age ranges, mind you 13-17 is more of a gap then any of the other ranges because a lot-- in my head, can change dramatically (development-wise). But I suppose this has always been a concern of mine, I've just never stumbled upon a member of that age to have really considered the matter. More reason for me to dumb it down to a PG rating, no snez. Luckily while this is a fetish forum, it is not JUST a fetish forum and there are other, neutral activities.

What I like about this change is more users could be inclined to give a little bit more info on their age, if they prefer not to give a solid number, over a "not telling." But while I say that, I'm not convinced every person who is uncomfortable with revealing their age "has something to hide," and that something being of a nefarious (-koff-) nature. My take? I'm sure some users don't want to be defined by a number and wish their personality in post to do the talking, or vice versa. Reflecting on it, I don't think the "not telling" should be removed, even if the option could be taken advantage of. As I have said before... any information could be fabricated if the person really wanted to [shark] minors to that extent. Better not to put off those of honorable intentions by making something out of information they choose not to share.

I DO think that while the "not telling" and age ranges are optional, that we should be able to put in our exact age, because really? I've come to terms with my age, for now at least. lol.gif

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Hey, Heath- it was just a suggestion, and (at least to me) seemed like a good possible way to "meet in the middle". I don't think that you have anything to apologise for at all. :hug: I don't think that Staff would have tried it if they thought there wasn't any merit. And you never know... they might decide to keep it and tweak it and it might end up being more of what you were thinking that it could be. I know that it was offered in a spirit of trying to be helpful. Sometimes we try things and they work out perfectly right off the bat, other times... not so much.

I'll stop rambling now.

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Echoing the thought that keeping a "not telling" option virtually changes nothing.

Also, while my age range is shown on the forum, I do believe my profile still states my actual age of 29. So at least there's that. But still.

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Possible solution:In your "about" section of your profile you can put your specific age? Seems to me that way everyone wins. smile.png

Yes we can use that as a method to add a specific age, but how many people are going to bother to actually check if someone has their age listed somewhere else in their profile when it's not showing up under your name on the board? I know I probably wouldn't think to check. This is also why I feel we need a special name color for minors so we can easily tell who is underage in the chatroom, because I certainly don't have the patience to check everyone's profile if I can't remember how old they are.

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I find it very interesting that most of the arguments I've seen here in support of compulsory age disclosure are to do with protecting ADULT members from potential discomfort and awkwardness, not to do with protecting minors from being taken advantage of.

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I find it very interesting that most of the arguments I've seen here in support of compulsory age disclosure are to do with protecting ADULT members from potential discomfort and awkwardness, not to do with protecting minors from being taken advantage of.

I understand the point you're making here, but honestly, I don't see making things more comfortable for the adult members as being really unreasonable, since this is a sexual fetish forum. I get that we have a huge U18 presence here but for most of us, our interest is adult-oriented at its core, and I don't think asking for an easy way to avoid minors' posts (via their listed age) in contexts that are sexual to us is asking for that much. (I also made every attempt to give suggestions to make the place safer for minors by suggesting all their obs and stuff be restricted but the youth board in my thread, but the status quo on that seems to have been upheld - but I realize you said 'most' of the arguments, not all.)

I also don't really think allowing minors to hide their age is protecting them; if they have to reveal that they're minors, they're potential pedophile targets, but if they choose not to, they're still potential targets for other people who want to be sexually explicit with them without realizing the inappropriateness because they don't know they're a minor. The very nature of allowing them here puts them in some degree of danger, and I don't think there's much we can do that we will all agree to to circumvent that, so at this point I feel like we might as well identify them.

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I understand the point you're making here, but honestly, I don't see making things more comfortable for the adult members as being really unreasonable, since this is a sexual fetish forum. I get that we have a huge U18 presence here but for most of us, our interest is adult-oriented at its core, and I don't think asking for an easy way to avoid minors' posts (via their listed age) in contexts that are sexual to us is asking for that much.

It's not unreasonable, no, but compared to doing what's best for, and makes the under age members feel safest and most comfortable, it's not important. At least not in my opinion. I experience that discomfort at times as well, and I'd much prefer to avoid it, but in the end, it is just awkwardness, and that's not a big deal.

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Hey, Heath- it was just a suggestion, and (at least to me) seemed like a good possible way to "meet in the middle". I don't think that you have anything to apologise for at all.

Thank you to people who have said this. I was exaggerating a bit, I don't feel like this is "all my fault". But it's still nice to hear people still support me for raising the issue in the first place.

I find it very interesting that most of the arguments I've seen here in support of compulsory age disclosure are to do with protecting ADULT members from potential discomfort and awkwardness, not to do with protecting minors from being taken advantage of.

Yes, you are right- the reason I started this thread was more about making the adults feel comfortable than having a big effect to protect the minors. Maybe I could have made that clearer- but I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

It's not a one-or-the-other; a change that makes the adults more comfortable doesn't necessarily make the minors more vulnerable. Suppose an older member comments on an obs by a minor, where the ages are not clear from the context. A visible age may prompt the older member to avoid using language like "hot sneezes" or "sexy sneezes" in their comment because they would feel awkward if they did. That might prevent the minor member getting comments which they were not prepared for and which made them feel uncomfortable.

...and if you're saying "but that problem could be solved by having 'Err on the side of caution' as a rule", then yeah- you're right. It would. I wish I had accepted that to begin with and not started this thread.

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