Should we have a "Like" feature?

[Juto]

I know this question has probably surfaced before but I got to talking with @hedgehog, @Kaze wo Hiku and @Sanguine Cheerful Worrier about it and non-staff @Joal 555 offered his two cents and asked our opinions so I decided to start a topic.

What follows is my personal view on the matter. Feel free to offer your own.

I would really like a "like" button, or a "kudos" or something along the same lines. I often find myself unable (by personal or time related constraints) to offer what I deem a good enough comment to a story that I liked. I "like" button would allow me to show the author that I enjoyed their piece instead of leaving a hasty "nice" or "good job" or "MOAR PLZ"   It would give me the opportunity to inform more author's that I like their work without having to construct a comment that I can stand by. I don't feel comfortable leaving only a "nice" or "good job", it's just not me. When I really REALLY like something i ALWAYS let the person know but as for the rest I must admit that even though I enjoyed reading them I don't comment. (I realise I'm being a two-faced idiot here, because I too love to get comments on what I write, sorry. But I respect that people don't comment for various reasons.) I'm also (sadly, maybe) the kind of person to, when I can scrap together 10 minutes to myself, read 3 stories and leave no comments rather than reading one and comment. So a "like" button would be preferable in my case.   

One negative aspect that has been highlighted by Joal was that a "like" button would add a competitive element to the forum in a negative way that could make some people feel better about themselves but could also make a lot of people feel worse. To take Joal's example, imagine writing a story that you yourself was very proud of but you only got 3 likes, whilst another story that you perhaps found not as detailed or well-written as your own got 8 likes. How would that make you feel?

I realise a "like" button could add more competition to it, but in my opinion, there's already plenty of competition on here...? You can always compare your post's number of views and number of comments to other posts and you can even sort by popularity in the sub forums. I don't really see how a "like" button could make that worse? Of course it would be hard to watch another story get more - in your opinion - less-deserved "likes" than your own, but you can already come to the same conclusion based on number of views and number of comments. Bottom line, in my opinion, a "like" button could create more happy than unhappy authors. (It seems to work fine for other forums like AO3 and tumblr but I must admit I haven't been on there long enough to give any constructive criticism on the matter.)

In general, I believe we have a very tight, kind and caring  and I have yet to see any negative competition arise from the popularity factors already present. And as for comments, I don't think that a "like" button would prevent people from leaving comments if they want to. I love to leave comments and especially to people who I know will reply to that comment. I like to make people feel good about themselves and their writing and it's always wonderful to be able to show support. Even with a "like" button I would still leave as many comments as I could but I would be able to make more author's feel better about themselves too.

As for the technical stuff:   

See I don't have a single tech-bone in my body so I have absolutely no idea how this would work on a platform like this forum, but naturally it should come with some constraints, like only being able to "like" after the author has uploaded a new chapter or something. Maybe guests could leave "like"'s as well...? Just a thought, I'm not sure I have an actual opinion yet.

Anyway, I would love to hear other people's view on the matter.

Thank you.

Juto 

[Hedgehog]

32 minutes ago, Juto said:

I realise a "like" button could add more competition to it, but in my opinion, there's already plenty of competition on here...? You can always compare your post's number of views and number of comments to other posts and you can even sort by popularity in the sub forums. I don't really see how a "like" button could make that worse? Of course it would be hard to watch another story get more - in your opinion - less-deserved "likes" than your own, but you can already come to the same conclusion based on number of views and number of comments. Bottom line, in my opinion, a "like" button could create more happy than unhappy authors. (It seems to work fine for other forums like AO3 and tumblr but I must admit I haven't been on there long enough to give any constructive criticism on the matter.)

In general, I believe we have a very tight, kind and caring  and I have yet to see any negative competition arise from the popularity factors already present. And as for comments, I don't think that a "like" button would prevent people from leaving comments if they want to. I love to leave comments and especially to people who I know will reply to that comment. I like to make people feel good about themselves and their writing and it's always wonderful to be able to show support. Even with a "like" button I would still leave as many comments as I could but I would be able to make more author's feel better about themselves too.

I see it exactly the way you do, @Juto. There is already a "competition" about the views and comments to a story; it wouldn't be "worse" with a "like" button. And I would use it for stories I liked but had no idea what comment I should write about it, too. So yes - I could make more authors / artist "happy" this way.

Thank you for opening this topic, Juto!

[Chanel_no5]

I'm personally against "like" buttons on the forum, always have and always will be. No thanks.

 

[Subtly Clashing Wishes]

16 minutes ago, Chanel_no5 said:

I'm personally against "like" buttons on the forum, always have and always will be. No thanks.

 

TBH, I'm pretty neutral on the whole topic. What are your objections? Is there something else besides the negative aspects of competition it could encourage? 

I think @Juto is right there is already a low level of competition (where isn't there) for popularity here. Do you feel a like button would make it worse? 

[haeeshoo]

Personally I'm against "like" mechanisms everywhere. I could write an essay of why that is, but I doubt it would be read and liked  

 

 

[Chanel_no5]

I feel it's likely to keep people from writing reviews at all. If all you have to do is click "like", you won't bother writing a comment as well, unless you're close friends with the writer/artist, so what it was about the story/picture that you enjoyed is never known. It can be frustrating when you've put lots of energy into creating something and then you don't even know if anyone actually read and liked the fic/art or just smack up a "like" just to say "I approve that you posted something". I know the use of likes varies from person to person, but if people want to give feedback they might feel "ah, I just press like, that's as good feedback as a comment and it takes less time." That is my personal issue with it.

I have another objection based on the competition thing. It's low as it is, but I think the very easiness about the "like" button risks making it worse, and may even spill into other places, turning other posts into more-or-less-discreet commercials: "Don't forget to like my fic X" and "I'll only update if I get 15 likes", and that type of thing is at risk of flourishing. It still happens with reviews, sure, but with likes I fear that's something that's gonna explode within a little while.

That's my personal opinion on it. I dislike "like".  

 

 

[cally]

It is an interesting conundrum, for all of the reasons that have been brought forth already.  I know I'm terribly guilty of reading things, thinking that it was great, and moving on to the next thing I'm doing without leaving a comment.  Would a "like/kudos" option change that?  Perhaps.  But let's say I'm writing a multi-chapter fic or a drabble thread.  Can it be liked more than once?  For example on AO3, once you've given kudos on a multi-chapter fic, that's it.  You can't do it more than once.  And if someone is writing a 30+ chapter fic, I might not have the time or inclination to write a comment on each update b/c that can be rather time consuming and to be honest, I'm lazy.  

I don't know if there's a solution to this that would satisfy everyone and make sure that people aren't feeling that writing and posting stories on here is a competition.  I don't believe that it is, but perhaps for younger writers they may feel less secure than those of us who are older.  

 

 

[Joal 555]

(as in the original discussion, my comments below are again, without my staff hat on)

I can see both sides of the discussion, but my view has always been in agreement with the points expressed so well by Chanel.

I think it would be so easy just to press a "like" button, that there may well be far fewer actual comments, which I think most of us find so much more rewarding than "likes". In addition, whilst it's true that it could be argued that there is already some "low level competition" as described in some of the above posts, in my opinion it would be a lot more "in your face" if we had the additional facility of "likes".

However, this could be a really interesting debate, so let's see how it develops, because future posts could result in people on either side of the discussion amending their thinking.

 

 

[bloom]

I agree with Chanel, 100%. I think that kind of feature ends up stifling discussion in all areas of the board, too; even outside stories, if such a feature is implemented everywhere on the board it becomes easy to simply like posts in general rather than to add your own thoughts. The forum already moves pretty slowly. 

Also, in my opinion, a like button isn't feedback. It's acknowledgement, sure, but it doesn't tell you anything about why the person liked your story at all. It's really hollow, worse than leaving a comment like "I really enjoyed this story, thank you for sharing!" Which took me ten seconds to write on a smartphone! So the argument about time constraints is very confusing to me. You can always write something like that and come back with a more detailed comment later, I'm sure almost all the writers here would love that. Plus, a comment bumps a story back up the front page, which is a big favor, I think. 

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by Junia

[SneezyHolmes]

I personally wouldn't mind it as I don't leave feedback as is. I'm not the best at writing constructive comments aside from the standard "Wow, this was great!" or "Can't wait for more!" so I wouldn't mind one in the slightest!

[MaiMai]

(Without my staff hat on) I feel pretty much the same way as Chanel, Junia and Joal. I'm worried that if we had a like button, that would hinder the discussion on the forum, and less people would take the time to leave comments at all. And it is a discussion board, really, after all! Also, a lot of the people I'm closest with from the forum I've started speaking to through commenting on their stories/them commenting on mine, so I'm worried we would lose an element of interaction with a like button being introduced.

[gingerdean]

4 hours ago, haeeshoo said:

Personally I'm against "like" mechanisms everywhere. I could write an essay of why that is, but I doubt it would be read and liked  

 

 

I would read it, and I would probably like it   But I wouldn't "like" it

 

 I'm putting my vote in for 'no' on this one. I'm not a fan of the 'like' button in any type of social media, never have been. (Not that I'm on a whole lot of social media, but that's my opinion anyway, for what it's worth.) Like others have said, I think people in general tend to get really lazy with "like" and "kudos" buttons after awhile, and it ultimately discourages people from leaving good, constructive feedback.  I understand your points though, Juto,  about not always having the time to leave a good, detailed comment. I'm also a person who always wants to put a lot of thought into my responses, and it sucks when I'm strapped for time and I can't do that. (Or if  I can't get to my computer for awhile, because typing out long messages on my phone drives me crazy.) And then sometimes I never end up leaving feedback as I had intended, and I feel bad about that. But all that being said, I'd rather have someone leave me a short, non-specific comment like "I really liked this, great job!" (which as Junia said, would literally take less than ten seconds of someone's time),  than receive a "like" from a like button, any day of the week. But, that's just me.

 

[count tiszula]

I have had the opportunity of reading the judgements of Lord Joal and Lady Chanel, and concur with their judgements.

NO!

[Sophie<3]

I feel like the majority of people is against it, so maybe this debate is already over, but I still feel the need to add my opinion.

My first reaction to this was: Yes, brilliant, we need it! Now, after reading everyone's concerns, I understand. However, my reasons for thinking this would be a good feature remain.

As a writer, posting stories on here is always a bit terrifying. Sometimes, nobody replies. Sometimes, very few people reply. Meaning the story (or piece of art, of course) you've worked so hard on is just sitting there with zero replies, for everyone to see, and it's kinda daunting, to be honest. Recently, I got so embarrassed about one story that I had to ask a close mod friend to please delete it. Which, yeah, I know, that may seem slightly ridiculous. But all I'm saying is that if there had been a few "likes" for that story, I don't think I would have felt anywhere near as horrible about it. That way, I would have known that, out of the hundred of views, even if people didn't find the time to reply, at least they read and enjoyed this story. Which would mean that posting it was worth it, because hey, a few people enjoyed it for whatever reason.

If there's nothing, well, it just feels like hundreds of people looked at it and they all hated it, you know? And hey, maybe that's actually the case. Maybe nobody would have liked the story even if a "like" feature existed. But I just feel like a "like" or "kudos" button would be a simple way to let somebody know that you enjoyed their writing or artwork, even if you don't have anything else to say about it. And personally, I would enjoy using it, too, because I am often too embarrassed to simply comments like "Nice" on somebody's work, because, well, that would almost seem like an insult because clearly, they worked hard to create it. But sometimes, I enjoy a story or piece of art, but a. don't have the time to leave a detailed comment or b. simply don't have much to say about it other than the fact that I thought it was cute, and in both cases, I usually don't respond at all, which is kinda terrible, because that person should know that I enjoyed their work.

I think I'll try to leave more comments in the future, even if they are short, so that people don't have to feel horrible about posting their work and not getting any responses. But personally, I think a "like" button would help with this, too. And once again, I understand everybody's objections, but as a writer, I'd prefer a few impersonal "likes" over zero comments, you know? It's just so discouraging, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels that way.

(I agree that the feature should be limited to the arts and stories sections, though. In the debate sections, I believe everyone should add their actual opinions instead of simply "liking" somebody else's, as that would make it too easy for people to dogpile/ gang up on others/ tag-along without properly thinking about something / etc.)

[Hedgehog]

21 minutes ago, Sophie<3 said:

As a writer, posting stories on here is always a bit terrifying. Sometimes, nobody replies. Sometimes, very few people reply. Meaning the story (or piece of art, of course) you've worked so hard on is just sitting there with zero replies, for everyone to see, and it's kinda daunting, to be honest. Recently, I got so embarrassed about one story that I had to ask a close mod friend to please delete it. Which, yeah, I know, that may seem slightly ridiculous. But all I'm saying is that if there had been a few "likes" for that story, I don't think I would have felt anywhere near as horrible about it. That way, I would have known that, out of the hundred of views, even if people didn't find the time to reply, at least they read and enjoyed this story. Which would mean that posting it was worth it, because hey, a few people enjoyed it for whatever reason.

If there's nothing, well, it just feels like hundreds of people looked at it and they all hated it, you know?

Thank you for this post, Sophie; because that's exactly what I feel as well if I don't get any comment on a new story or chapter. It's daunting and embarrassing and yes, I've also thought of deleting some of my stories for that reason... 

[bloom]

I had another thought (I would have just edited my first post, but a bunch of people have commented since then).

There's also the issue of... what if this doesn't fix the perceived problem? Like, what if this feature is implemented and then your (general you) fics still don't get any comments or likes? I feel like people would feel even worse if that ended up happening. I don't think this really solves anything, it just turns the current perceived problem (few comments) into a different problem (few likes). 

I'm also not sure if this:

9 hours ago, Juto said:

I have yet to see any negative competition arise from the popularity factors already present.

is strictly true; I think this entire thread is an example of negative competition already, because it's somewhat about people feeling that their work is unappreciated. I don't think adding a like button is going to solve that problem at all, because that kind of thing - feeling that way - is a personal issue. (That's not to say I don't understand! Getting few or no comments on something you've posted can be really disheartening, but at its core that's a problem that you (general you, again!) have to get over yourself, rather than seeking an outside solution to the problem.)

Edited December 31, 2016 by Junia

[count tiszula]

I also concur with the judgement of Marchioness Junia Crewe, as the Ministry would call them, and concur.

It is virtually  unknown for me to get more  than one comment on anything I write , and I have long ago given up trying to make stories more popular.  Just imagine having no comments and no likes....

[StaraiRoalanstjay]

I would LOVE a 'like' feature! Likes on Facebook, Upvotes on Reddit, Promotions on Society6, Favourites on Etsy... Why can't we have it here?

[Anonymouse]

I feel that "likes" would dilute and dissuade any substantial feedback.

[Kiaory]

I'm not necessarily advocating this over simply leaving things the way they are, but I thought I'd throw it out there that some forums have multiple parallel ratings that people can give a post, rather than a single like button. So maybe it could be set up so that people could rate a post as funny, hot, insightful, well written, or original, (or some other option) rather than just expressing generic approval. Leaving a rating wouldn't be any more difficult than leaving a like, but might be a bit more satisfying and useful as feedback.

It still would be a step below getting a comment, though. And of course I have no idea how difficult this would be technically.

[Shay]

This is a topic that I think I have mixed feelings about. My general feeling is that I'd be against a like feature for a lot of the reasons already mentioned. As a writer that has posted a bunch of fics on both ff.net and ao3.org, I can say that having someone kudos/favorite my fic is certainly better than nothing, but comments are so much better, even if they are short ones. After a certain point kudos/likes/favorites start to feel hollow. I'm at the point where these actions really don't mean much to me at all. However, perhaps that last comment should be taken with a grain of salt. It's possible that those actions no longer mean anything to me because I've been in a writing slump/hiatus for a year and have no desire to write expect in RPs now. Because of this, I barely even react when I get an actual comment/review on an old story I posted. But I digress...

I think in general I don't get many comments on general fanfic sites and I tend to get even less on here. Maybe the likes would make me feel good to a certain extent if I was actively writing, but I'm not sure it outweighs the possible negative consequences of such a feature. So again, I think I'm generally against this, but I don't think I'd be overly upset if a like feature was implemented. I think I like Kiaory's suggestion better though. It would give slightly more feedback than a like without creating any more effort on the part of the reader.

[Subtly Clashing Wishes]

I think this conversation has been fascinating. I'd like to summarize what has been said so far.

There is a desire of some members for a likes/kudos button as there is an underlying sense writers have that their works are being read/appreciated but they are unaware of this. A likes/kudos option would allow the writers (and everyone else) to see more clearly how many readers (and possibly who) are enjoying their work without commenting.

If I counted right 18 people have participated in this thread, including myself. There seems to be universal consensus that a comment is best of all. 

A likes/kudos option is much more controversial:

For: 4

Against:  9

Maybe, if tweaked in some way: 4 (I threw myself in this category)

The major objections to having a likes/kudos option are 1. concern that it would reduce and/or dilute comments 2. foster negative competition 3. this doesn't solve problem at hand.

Support for a like/kudos option is mostly about members wanting to leave some sort of positive support, but 1. don't feel they have a pithy/insightful comment to leave 2. don't feel they have time to leave a comment.

Does anyone disagree with this summary?

 

Edited January 1, 2017 by Sanguine Cheerful Worrier

[MyOwnPrivateSFC]

1 hour ago, Sanguine Cheerful Worrier said:

I'll assume silence = agreement.

 

Not that I either agree or disagree with your assessment (to be honest, I didn't really plan on getting involved in this conversation at all), but I STRONGLY caution you (as Joal said, as a regular member, NOT a mod) against thinking like this, especially when a big part of what we're discussing is people's tendencies not to comment on Forum posts for this, that, or the other reason. In this case, for example, people might not be able to outline their thoughts as well as you did and feel that means they shouldn't try (which isn't true, but people--including me--get anxious about stuff like that), or might feel that if no one else is commenting, that must mean everyone agrees with you (which then becomes a viscious cycle, where no one says anything because no one else has). Not to mention, we have zillions (okay, not zillions, but a large number) of members who might not even see this thread, because they read what they like, and that's it. Assuming all of them agree with you because they didn't say they don't is both disingenuous and bad science ("you can't prove a negative", etc.).

*steps down from soapbox, leaving it in the corner in case other short members need it*

[SleepingPhlox]

Sometimes I wish we had one of these...I'd abuse the hell out of it though.  There are so many times I come on here to read what's going on and think "Oh I must leave a comment on that later" and then...don't.  I don't mean to be a jerk like that but sometimes I don't feel like any comment I can come up with does the work justice. Especially when it comes to art.  When something blows me away and I can't think of anything but "wow" to say to it when someone very skilled has clearly put a lot of time into it, I feel like my lame comment is kind of an insult!  Or I'm reading after work, which takes a lot out of me and I just can't think enough to form a coherent comment so I intend to do it after I've rested and then don't.   A like button would come in handy then!  

And to everyone whose work I've enjoyed but have not left feedback on, I'm sorry!  I know what it feels like to worry when you see a lot of views and no comments!  I'm going to try to do better in the future!!

[Shamaël]

I am against a "like" button and I personally agree with everything @Chanel_no5 said about the fact that it could prevent people from leaving a comment.

I'm aware that it's partly a personal problem and I understand that a lot of people don't like to comment or don't know what to write (and, for this reason, would prefer a like button), but I always prefer a comment, even if it's very short, than a "like". I don't know if other people agree with me, but to have comments, even if they are not "original", encourage me to write more and quicker (something a "like" will never do).