College Questions for our European Brethren

[PC B W/ U]

I know we’ve got a fair share of Europeans here, so I wanted to get your input on something I’ve been thinking about a good bit.  As I’m sure you know, higher education isn’t guaranteed in the United States, and there are a lot of people looking to change that.  While I’m certainly not opposed to my countrymen being more educated, I’m a little skeptical that just waving a magic wand and saying “Free College!” is going to fix all the issues that our elected leaders claim it will.

My questions for the Europeans (and anyone else who lived in a land of free college) are:  How does this work in your country?  Is it truly guaranteed for everyone who wants it?  Are there minimum standards, entrance exams, etc?  Are there lousy schools that don’t impress employers if you earn a degree from there?  What happens if you fail out; can you earn another shot at some point?  If everyone has access to a degree, are you completely screwed in the work force if you don’t earn one for some reason?  Is the system criticized at all?  Are any of those criticisms valid? 

Now, I know I could go research this myself, but I enjoy hearing firsthand experiences when they’re available.  (I’m also lazy).  If anyone is kind enough to answer, please don’t feel the need to stick to those questions; if you have anything to say on this subject that’s even tangentially related, I’d appreciate your input. 

[Seniorstatus14]

I'm not European, however, in high school I was in the International Baccalaureate program which is similar to AP except instead of being compared to students in just the United States, you're compared to students all over the world. We had a forum for IB students and the majority of the students were not in the United States. From what I understand, it is much harder to get into Universities in Europe than in America. Their IB students have to make a specific score to get into the programs of their choice and their admittance was contingent on if they ended up receiving said scores. It also appears that they have more trade schools than America or that maybe their trade schools are more highly recognized and seen as a viable option where in America some people typically look down on people who go to trade school.

I'm interested to hear what people who are actually from Europe have to say about their university system. This was just what I observed from my outsiders perspective.

[Sitruuna]

Higher education is free here but of course there are entrance examns and such. There are a lot more applicants than there's "room" for new students or need for new professionals of certain professions. There are ways to get accepted without examns (ie if you get a high enough grade in your matriculation examinations in chemistry or physics the University in my city automatically accepts you as a student there) and how hard it is to get in and how many examns you have to take a part in debends on what you are applying for. Sociology/social work or health care related degrees in an "AMK"? There's a "preliminary" examn for the entrance examns and the entrance examns might also include interviews to measure motivation and "suitability" (if you are going for something that will leaf to a profession that involvea working with children, for example, they check your crriminal records and do their best to make sire you are a mentally stable and non-dangerous person), while some others only requier a very generic examn.

You are also free to apply to as many places as many times as you want in your life. You can get multiple degrees. Last year they did mke a change that favours "first timers" (people who have never been listed as students in a higher education school) over others so for example if there are 20 open student "positions" a minimum of 16 would be reserved for first timers unless there are less that 16 first timers applying there. This obviously makes it harder for people who already have a degree to get another. You are never too old or too educated to go for another degree.

You are not screwed if you never get a higher education degree. There are certain professions that requier it (you have to get a nursing degree from and AMK to be a certified nurse, for example) but not everything requiers it. In fact if you want a job that doesn't requier it you might be considered "overqualified" and not be considered for the job at all because it's assumed that either 1) you will leave as soon as you find work that better matches your education, or 2) you aren't a good employee, if you were you woukd be working a job that matches your educational level.

I don't know of any higher education schools that would have a bad reputation here. Generally any degree earned here is apparently considered good. I don't think anyone here would even want to apply to a school that has a bad reputation.

 

//edit. I would like to point out that even though I used nurses as an example here, we do have different types of nurses with different levels of education so not all nurses need a higher education degree. 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Sitruuna

[Sitruuna]

3 hours ago, Seniorstatus14 said:

It also appears that they have more trade schools than America or that maybe their trade schools are more highly recognized and seen as a viable option where in America some people typically look down on people who go to trade school.

Is a trade school the same a vocational school?

Edited January 31, 2017 by Sitruuna

[March Hare]

In the Netherlands, most people consider University expensive even though our Universities' tuitions are about between a tenth and a hundredth? of what the American (Ivy League) school charge. Still, it's relatively easy to get in - for Uni, you need a diploma from the highest tier of the three-tier secondary school education system. Bachelor's degree officially should take three years, but many students take longer than that. Students used to get subsidized, but government turned everything into a loan last year. 

When you go to Uni, you make a choice - Physics, Mathematics, English/French/German/Dutch/Spanish/etc. Language and Culture, Language and Culture Studies, Economics, Musicology, Literary Studies, History, etc. - and that's what you'll focus on from the first. No courses in basically everything until you pick a major; courses outside your chosen field are an option for some, but they're exception rather than rule.

To illustrate: I've been working on my Bachelor's in Language and Culture Studies for almost thirteen years, and Uni has been letting me as long as I pay tuition. I've built up a debt amounting to tens of thousands of euros. I won't be going for my Master's degree and when it comes to advancing a Career, my diploma will be useless. But I need to do this for myself, and I'm getting the chance. 

It's getting harder, but most Universities still heavily favor foreign students. I can only say: if you want to study in Europe, you could do far worse than the Netherlands.

[count tiszula]

It is so long since I was at the university that almost everything has changed.  Nevertheless, a few points of interest.

Most importantly, I take It you are talking about universities, not schools.  Children go to schools, When they leave they go to Universities.  Some Universities are divided into colleges.  I gather that education generally and schools in particular are so bad that many children leave school after "o" levels, or whatever they're called nowadays, which they now take when they're about 17 or 18, and go to what they call college, that is  sixth form colleges, where they take their "A" levels and other stuff,  But this is neither School nor University.

Apart from these important facts [School is for children, University is tertiary education]., in my day it was an ideal situation.  You were paid to go to university, indeed, Liberals often voted to have their grants reduced, because a] they were mad, b] they considered it f-word [well, what else can I say, that's the word they always used] because they were richer than ordinary people.  I gather the state has changed, and now you have to pay fairly modest tuition fees and live on air.

In proper universities, you apply to do a particular tripos, in one particular Faculty; eg, Classics, Modern and mediaeval Languages, Natural Sciences, Medicine, etc  You never have to  go outside your subject, unless you are American enough to take say a Certificate of Competent Knowledge in some language or something.  Again I understand that in some universities you do a general year to begin with, but something wrong there, what?

Well, that's quite enough.  Remember, children; school.  After school, University.  They are not the same. 

[Dusty15]

Count, in North America (and possibly elsewhere), University is considered a type of school. The term "school" includes primary school/elementary school then middle school/junior high school (in some places, others it is lumped into primary) and then high school and then the choice to continue to university or college (and those terms are interchangeable in the US but not in Canada...and some universities have colleges within them but we also have totally separate institutions called colleges). The terms are different so for some people here, university is a type of school and therefore they are interchangeable. So don't lump everyone together in your lessons, okay?  

[Sitruuna]

Also for the record "AMK" stands for "ammattikorkeakoulu", "ammatti" means vocation/profession/... and korkeakoulu would mean higher education (literally korkea+koulu = high+school but it's obviously not the same as what you call high school, lol). The schools usually call themselves a "University of applied sciences" but we don't really consider them Universities but a separate kind of higher education. They are more practical and the stuff you study is more specified and you can't really pick courses from other fields.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Sitruuna

[count tiszula]

And there I was thinking that it was possible that Americans would be able to avoid awkward situayions nd misunderstandings by being informed of British usage.

Hello, Dusty.  Anyway, I now see that it was my failure to understand merican despite three major eriods of study.. Just think, if all British people learnt proper American, all these awkward misunderstandings coud be so easily  avoided.

[PC B W/ U]

Hey, thanks for all the insight, everyone!  It's always interesting to hear how different countries approach different issues.

Sitruuna/March Hare:  One of the biggest parts of my governor's current push for college is that "You need it to get a good job."    It's interesting to hear that, even in some places where free/affordable higher ed has long been the norm, it's as much for personal enrichment as career advancement (and sometimes even more so). 

Count:  Thanks for the lesson, and I'm glad you were able to learn a little something as well.  Not sure if you've done a lot of travelling, or had the occasion to sit down and talk with a lot of non-British English speakers, but the language has taken on some interesting idioms in the areas that it's spread to. 

Cheers!

[Dusty15]

On January 31, 2017 at 7:13 PM, count tiszula said:

Well, that's quite enough.  Remember, children; school.  After school, University.  They are not the same. 

 

22 hours ago, count tiszula said:

And there I was thinking that it was possible that Americans would be able to avoid awkward situayions nd misunderstandings by being informed of British usage.

Hello, Dusty.  Anyway, I now see that it was my failure to understand merican despite three major eriods of study.. Just think, if all British people learnt proper American, all these awkward misunderstandings coud be so easily  avoided.

It didn't come across as you educating anyone as to the British usage of the terms. It came across as the be-all and end-all of the correct usage of the terms anywhere, which is why I felt it necessary to point out that in other places outside your own use the terms interchangeably. The patronizing "Remember, children" indicated to me that this wasn't a kind lesson in understanding the differences but instead a lesson in the superiorly correct use. 

[count tiszula]

oh, Dusty; where did we go wrong?  Where be your vintage underwear, your stories and your jests?

Anyway, talking of other versions of English vocab in this field; since no young British people have posted; it seems that nowadays they refer to universities as "UNI"  As far as I can gather this is Australian, indeed, seems to derive from a single tv programme, viz Neighbours.  The amazing laconic style of Australian, which in extreme cases makes me lol, demands it..

They have also started referring to "semesters".  I have to guess at the meaning of this, since obviously it means six months, but people here won't explain this to me.  But I assume it follows Etonian Usage, viz a year of three halves.  So American schools [is that right] have three of four periods of six months in a year.

[Anonymouse]

10 minutes ago, count tiszula said:

oh, Dusty; where did we go wrong?  Where be your vintage underwear, your stories and your jests?

Anyway, talking of other versions of English vocab in this field; since no young British people have posted; it seems that nowadays they refer to universities as "UNI"  As far as I can gather this is Australian, indeed, seems to derive from a single tv programme, viz Neighbours.  The amazing laconic style of Australian, which in extreme cases makes me lol, demands it..

They have also started referring to "semesters".  I have to guess at the meaning of this, since obviously it means six months, but people here won't explain this to me.  But I assume it follows Etonian Usage, viz a year of three halves.  So American schools [is that right] have three of four periods of six months in a year.

At least where I went to school, a semester was half of the school year, not half of an actual year (12 months). We had fall semester (Aug/Sept-Dec) and spring semester (Jan-May). There could be a third or fourth summer semester or even abridged winter semesters depending on the college or university. My undergraduate program did not offer summer semesters but my graduate program does two summer semesters (with twice as many classes in the week to make up for the shorter length of these semesters).

Edited February 8, 2017 by AnonyMouse
ETA wrong season

[count tiszula]

Thank you so much, Anony . This is more than I've learnt in 11 years.  I worked out that a semester must be one of two long terms, but this was denied.

IF anyone cares, terms at my university were Michaelmas, Lent and Easter, and also Long vac. [formerly known as the Long]  Good thing I didn't go to Oxford, eh?

Actually, it seems that until Victorian times people didn't actually  turn up for the Michaelmas Term, as there was no games then and many people preferred to attend Parliament.  But not Pitt the Younger, who failed to get elected for the Varsity, as an undergraduate. Perhaps his golden gown put people off; but why would it?

[Dusty15]

Terms and semesters are fairly interchangeable, at least in the US. You take an exam halfway through the semester called a "mid-term exam" and then you take finals at the end of each semester. Sometimes semesters are referred to as "Fall Term" and "Spring Term" too.

And we went wrong when you assumed all things revolved around your universe, I think  

[count tiszula]

Harsh, dusty,harsh,as I always say when I've got a pea-sized piece of chhinkni in my nose.

But surely I've always lived entirely in my own personal universe!

And I remember one of your wonderful stories being set in my university; I don't think you ever called it a school....

And now, a question no one is ever likely to answer.   What is spring break\?;    

[skater]

On February 9, 2017 at 10:47 AM, count tiszula said:

And now, a question no one is ever likely to answer.   What is spring break\?;  

https://www.google.com/#q=what+is+spring+break

 

And sometimes I call the college that I'm at my "school" because the terms are interchangeable here. My college/school is not a university because it doesn't offer post-graduate school. But if I did go to a university, I could still call that my university OR my college OR my school. Neat huh/?;

[Wilde]

Even though it might seem an odd option, you could indeed do worse than study in The Netherlands, as March Hare said. 

I must add that what I like about being a student here is that universities don't really discriminate, so to say. Some courses require an entry exam, but by far not all do. Also the fees are the same throughout the country, hence a universities' reputation won't dictate its fee, therefore its relatively easy to get into a qualitatively good uni fairly cheaply.