Manliness

[Heathcliff]

I've always felt uncomfortable and resentful about the concept of "manliness". I'm not a macho, tough man. I think even in primary school some people thought I was gay- I actually joined "sewing club".

I've never learned to fight, or been in a proper fight. I've never been good at sports- though it doesn't mean I never played them, I used to play football (very badly) with friends, and sometimes tennis. Though it's nothing like I've ever done I'm sometimes interested in boxing.

I've always felt it's a bit silly to go on about being "a real man" although at the same time I wish I felt like that.

I feel sometimes I can intellectually intimidate people if I wanted, though I long to be able to physically intimidate someone.

Do any other members of the forum feel like this? Or otherwise?

[Rook]

 my personal opinion as a woman who is younger than you I personally think men who don't act all Macho and aggressive and intimidating are more intellectual about everyday activities and life itself are much more approachable and in my definition of manly because women and men have their flaws but they are supposed to coexist sometimes they can sometimes they can't by scientific standards we are meant to be mates and create children and sometimes that may not happen in nature men are supposed to be aggressive and assert dominance to protect the female but we as humans are the highest species of mental intelligence in the actual food chain although sometimes we as humans can be very stupid I personally think that in our society we shouldn't have to have only one definition of masculine or manly or dominant I rather have an intelligent male companion who I can talk to who treats me as an equal partner who can battle me with wits and jokes and not through your sheer muscle because any man who is smart enough to analyze the situation and take down a problem without raising his voice or his fist that to me is the scariest and that's what I look for sometimes aggression is needed for protection and that's it at least in my opinion but no Heath you don't have to be anyone's definition of manly but your own and anyone who says otherwise has not mentally matured yet so don't worry about it I prefer the intelligent heath who will sit and talk to me and battle with wits and facts and add libs and talk about theories and dreams and everything that makes us people not the one who says let's fight I personally like you as you are you are your own definition of manly and you are the definition of manly I look for but if you do want to gain the ability to physically intimidate you are absolutely in your right to do so for yourself not because Society tells you you should I love you as you are so that's just my two cents

[•.*°•☆. Q .☆•°*.•]

honestly i find qualities like honor, respect, and dignity to be more manly than machismo. the latter always seems so immature and childish to me, which i don't think is manly at all

[facet]

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[Rook]

11 minutes ago, facet said:

As an AFAB trans person, there are definitely parts of manliness that I admire and try to emulate- just not the toxic masculinity bits.

I will say that some Christmas a few years ago, my friend gave me a tiny book called The Art of Being A Man or something like that, and even though it was a gag gift, I ate that shit up. I recently came upon it again, and I was happy to see it, even if it is all just silly. If anything, I think that's why it works.

I've also gone to the park with some of my guy friends and they tried to teach me how to walk like a guy at my bequest. I'm not sure I really got it, but honestly, I'm not sure they did either hahaha

All things considered, I love manliness and I love femininity. I love both and I also love other aspects that are completely different. I feel really happy that I can embrace all sides of the equation. It brings me joy in my life. 

AGGRESSIVELY DOES THE WILL SMITH ARM THING THIS THIS ABSOLUTELY THIS

[Garnet]

There are so, so many definitions of masculinity. The public/media image of machismo is usually really narrow, overblown and ends up falling into, as facet said, the toxic masculinity concept. It's usually enforced by cis hetero men onto other cis hetero men, without any concept of what makes them "attractive" to their desired sex, so the whole concept is a bit... dumb. 

There's no such thing as a Real Man, and being able to fight or be good at sports is almost meaningless in our current society unless your whole career is dumped into that. 

Like, I'm obviously speaking from a bi woman position, so my opinions are biased, but I'm way more interested in a man who has hobbies and skills and interests versus caveman brain assets. It's 2019, if you know how to crochet or play piano or keep a nice home then you're 100% more interesting than someone who's riding completely on the traditional physical/emotionally "masculine" spectrum.*

* obviously being talented in any of the above doesn't exclude you from being a shithead, so still dump your points into being a well-rounded person. What a concept.

[Masking]

My brother is a sensitive man - he was the crybaby of the family when we were younger - who dresses better than I do, has a papercraft hobby that he's openly gaga about, talks to me whenever he's anxious, cooks, and happily grooms his beard on a daily basis. He's my best friend, and I consider him the best man I know. As far as I'm concerned, all that's required to prove to me you're a "real" man is...well, being a man. Masculinity? Pah, who needs it?

[black_mage]

I'm not at all macho either. When I was a kid I was pretty feeble I guess and I was picked on by some guys at school who used to do bench press and stuff like that (I remember them talking about how many kilos they can press). I didn't lift weights and I remember those guys ridiculing me and the girls in the class laughed and that was pretty hard for me to deal with at that age :). Funny that it didn't motivate me to do much exercise though, I didn't really start training until much later as an adult. At some point I started to realize that the ones who act aggressively are usually unsure of themselves and the confident (manly) ones don't have anything to prove so they can be calm. 

[Shay]

Can I just say that I think it's awesome that you joined a sewing club in school? I'm genderfluid, but most of the time I feel a bit more on the masculine side of non-binary. I'm AFAB, but there's not much about me that's stereotypically female. One of the few exceptions is my enjoyment of crafts like knitting, crochet, and cross stitch, but I often feel a certain level of discomfort with these activities, especially if I'm doing in them in public, just due to gender assumptions. Now I'm fully aware that there are men that do these crafts and I even just recently knitted a scarf based on a pattern designed by a man, but it's still something that you don't really see or hear about much.

So I guess I just wanted to thank you for sharing that. Every time I hear about a man doing these sorts of things, it makes me smile, and it helps me feel a bit more comfortable with myself.

Also as a general response to your post, I wanted to say that while I'm attracted to men/masculinity, I'm really not all that attracted to the typical macho tough guy. No one has to be like that to be a "real man".

[Kudryavka]

On 3/16/2019 at 8:05 AM, Heathcliff said:

I've always felt uncomfortable and resentful about the concept of "manliness". I'm not a macho, tough man. I think even in primary school some people thought I was gay- I actually joined "sewing club".

I've never learned to fight, or been in a proper fight. I've never been good at sports- though it doesn't mean I never played them, I used to play football (very badly) with friends, and sometimes tennis. Though it's nothing like I've ever done I'm sometimes interested in boxing.

I've always felt it's a bit silly to go on about being "a real man" although at the same time I wish I felt like that.

I feel sometimes I can intellectually intimidate people if I wanted, though I long to be able to physically intimidate someone.

Do any other members of the forum feel like this? Or otherwise?

*hugs you*

I dated a guy like you and loved him dearly but he had so many issues as a result of said discomfort and resentment around "manliness".  I couldn't get through to him, for various reasons, but perhaps I can help you.

First, I would suggest you look into the Enneagram which delineates different spiritual roles or archetypes that individuals play in society -- it clearly illustrates there can't be only one way to be a man or a woman because there are a handful of different archetypal personality structures which have their own strengths and weaknesses apart from their gender.

You may also wish to explore the concept of the alchemical marriage and of the animus/anima duality.  Basically, a fully mature individual is hermaphroditic -- embodying both masculine and feminine characteristics.  (That's why clearly delineated roles are supposed to be taken up by parents so that children have a model for both the masculine and the feminine, so that they may synthesize them.)  So, you don't have to feel bad about having feminine traits, just seek to complement them by cultivating their opposites which you may have repressed.

Also, by the way, I'd like to say that the concept "a real man" is subject to the propaganda of the age.  If you're in the US, you're probably under the influence of a concept of masculinity that was necessary to motivate and recruit men to fight in WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc.  This is necessarily restrictive and limited because anything "soft" is repressed in order to achieve the objectives of war. 

However, it is true that in order to respect yourself, you must work to be courageous and capable of defending yourself and those that you love.  (Perhaps you could look into martial arts?)