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Coronavirus support


Heathcliff

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9 hours ago, aggedy_ann said:

I’ve been making the cloth ones for me and my nursing home since we’re using them there, plus I just can’t wear the same mask every day.   

I was sceptical in the past about masks for healthy people who aren't showing symptoms, but I may have been wrong - it looks like the WHO or the British Government might be changing their minds on this. Sadiq Khan (the Mayor of London) is calling for masks on public transport, and other places where people cannot socially distance.

But to any forum members wearing masks, please please remember:

- social distancing and good handwashing are still important

- try to avoid touching your face (as I'm sure you all know you can get infected through your eyes)

Stay safe everyone.

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1 hour ago, Heathcliff said:

I was sceptical in the past about masks for healthy people who aren't showing symptoms

incubation periods are, in fact, a thing 

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To everyone who has to subject themselves to daily video (conference) calls and is not taking to it:

You are, in fact, a bit of a hero yourself, you know. Good job. You're doing fine. It sucks ALL the big hairy balls and you're doing it anyway. You're great. ❤️

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1 hour ago, Heathcliff said:

I was sceptical in the past about masks for healthy people who aren't showing symptoms

I have to wear them for work due to the fact that there is a shortage of medical grade PPE

 

Also, there are asymptomatic carriers who will never show symptoms and never develop the virus, yet shed it.   How do you know if you are one of them?   Best to wear a mask.   

Edited by aggedy_ann
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2 hours ago, aggedy_ann said:

Also, there are asymptomatic carriers who will never show symptoms and never develop the virus, yet shed it.   How do you know if you are one of them?   Best to wear a mask.   

Indeed. I should have thought harder- however, I think the advice still is:

- social distancing is still the most important thing

- the worst thing we can do is deprive health workers of masks, when they need them the most- because (God forbid) if you get ill it's health workers who will be looking after you.

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1 hour ago, Heathcliff said:

- the worst thing we can do is deprive health workers of masks, when they need them the most- because (God forbid) if you get ill it's health workers who will be looking after you.

good thing there's a never-ending supply of cloth masks (triple layer, with filter pockets, fitted nose pieces, etc) on websites like etsy for like eighteen dollars each, then. not everybody has the resources to afford something like that, but i would say in a pandemic most people can afford to spare that kind of money (obviously a lot of people are out of work, so this doesn't universally apply, unfortunately)

edit: from my state's DOH website

Quote

My Mask Protects You, Your Mask Protects Me


Those who are staying home and have no close contacts who are infected with COIVID-19 don’t need a mask most of the time. However, wearing a nonmedical or homemade mask may be helpful in certain situations or for certain populations.
• Shopping at essential businesses, like grocery stores or pharmacies;
• While visiting your health care provider;
• Traveling on public transportation;
• Interacting with customers/clients at essential businesses;
• When feeling sick, coughing, or sneezing;

Because homemade masks protect everyone else from the droplets created by the wearer, it is important that as many people as possible wear these masks when leaving their homes. This helps prevent those who may be infectious but are only mildly symptomatic or not symptomatic from spreading the virus to others in the community. Everyone should remember the phrase “my mask protects you, your mask protects me.” By increasing the overall number of people who are containing their coughs, sneezes, and other droplets, it will help us control the overall spread of the virus. 

 

Edited by jejune
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We lost Tim Brooke-Taylor to this infernal bloody virus recently.

Here is a programme of him appearing on Sorry I Haven't a Clue, I wish we could have seen him again:

(I think it's important to laugh at a time like this, and now this brings me to tears.)

Edited by Heathcliff
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Re: masks, they seem like they're helpful (as everyone has been stating above!), but there seems to be a lot of scepticism/general culture against them in the UK, and I'm really confused about whether I should be wearing one or not. The UK government is not recommending us to wear masks (not that I would trust anything the UK government says), but also when I've mentioned wearing cloth masks to my parents they've gotten really...odd with me? Like, acting like I'm being unreasonable, and some of my friends have been the same. I'm not going out much but I do have to collect prescriptions from time to time, and I wanted to ensure that I wasn't going to risk transmitting anything unintentionally, even though as far as I'm aware I'm healthy, but you never know (re: the discussion of asymptomatic carriers) (also I have an autoimmune disease so I kind of want to take any precautions I can?). This is absolutely not intended to suggest that we shouldn't be wearing masks, or to ask for medical advice - I'm just very confused about the strange reactions I've been getting at the suggestion of wearing a mask? Sorry if this is a stupid observation or anything, the people around me are just making me feel as though I'm acting unreasonably (am I??? idk??) so I can't ask anyone about this anymore. If anyone has any reassurance, that might be nice. :sweatdrop:

Edited by MaiMai
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I don't know. I've heard that if you're not wearing the proper type of mask and someone with the virus coughs near you, then it will actually trap the virus in the mask making you more likely to be breathing it in and putting you at more risk. This is part of why I wouldn't want to wear one, but also due to breathing issues, I really can't breathe with my nose covered for more than a few minutes, so I'd be forced to keep pulling it up and down anyway.

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51 minutes ago, MaiMai said:

Sorry if this is a stupid observation or anything, the people around me are just making me feel as though I'm acting unreasonably (am I??? idk??)

Your feelings are totally valid! It is absolutely a reasonable question and it's not fair of people to make you think otherwise.

In my opinion (caveat.....I have no expertise or knowledge over and above the next lay person), unless the government make it compulsory, it is very much a personal choice and you should do whatever you feel you will be most comfortable with, after taking into account the arguments for and against that I am sure you will have heard.

Hope that helps a little.

:joal:

 

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42 minutes ago, Shay said:

I don't know. I've heard that if you're not wearing the proper type of mask and someone with the virus coughs near you, then it will actually trap the virus in the mask making you more likely to be breathing it in and putting you at more risk. This is part of why I wouldn't want to wear one, but also due to breathing issues, I really can't breathe with my nose covered for more than a few minutes, so I'd be forced to keep pulling it up and down anyway.

I'm becoming quite confused now about the issue of masks. There seems to be conflicting advice.

The advice from the government here (say what you like about them) and the WHO was that healthy people don't benefit from wearing masks, but some doctors were disagreeing and saying wearing masks should become the norm.

I am very much aware, and worried, about taking supplies away from the NHS as I have said - as if we can protect ourselves by staying home and social distancing, and a mask provides mininmal benefit if any - what right have I to take that mask from a doctor or nurse treating Covid patients? It's not just unwise, it's wrong.

But then there's the question of homemade, bought, or cloth masks. It might be that these help, but some sources have said they may even make you more likely to be infected - if droplets get on the cloth and seep into it, you may be more likely to inhale them.

And there always is the issue that a mask makes you more likely to touch your face around the eyes.

For the moment I am not wearing a mask, I am waiting for governement guidance. My dad (who is a biochemist) was fairly neutral on the topic, and I am willing to trust his opinion a certain distance too.

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1 hour ago, MaiMai said:

Re: masks, they seem like they're helpful (as everyone has been stating above!), but there seems to be a lot of scepticism/general culture against them in the UK, and I'm really confused about whether I should be wearing one or not. The UK government is not recommending us to wear masks (not that I would trust anything the UK government says), but also when I've mentioned wearing cloth masks to my parents they've gotten really...odd with me? Like, acting like I'm being unreasonable, and some of my friends have been the same. I'm not going out much but I do have to collect prescriptions from time to time, and I wanted to ensure that I wasn't going to risk transmitting anything unintentionally, even though as far as I'm aware I'm healthy, but you never know (re: the discussion of asymptomatic carriers) (also I have an autoimmune disease so I kind of want to take any precautions I can?). This is absolutely not intended to suggest that we shouldn't be wearing masks, or to ask for medical advice - I'm just very confused about the strange reactions I've been getting at the suggestion of wearing a mask? Sorry if this is a stupid observation or anything, the people around me are just making me feel as though I'm acting unreasonably (am I??? idk??) so I can't ask anyone about this anymore. If anyone has any reassurance, that might be nice. :sweatdrop:

MaiMai - wearing masks is very unusual in the UK, not a familiar part of our culture. As my dad pointed out, some people e.g. in Beijing wear them because of pollution.

I found it unusual and a bit scary when I started seeing people in masks in the supermarket. But who knows, we may all be doing it soon - so if you want to wear one, just take good advice from online and elsewhere - and don't be ashamed about trying to keep yourself safe.

Edited by Heathcliff
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I'm kinda worried about what it might mean for the future.  As far as I know, but I'm no expert, we build our immune systems by being exposed to germs and fighting them.  By distancing and wearing protection for a prolonged period, we'll reduce this exposure, and I'd worry that in the long run we are actually weakening ourselves and our immune responses, not just to covid, but to all simple illnesses too - but maybe someone with more infection control background than me could tell me if I am right or wrong about that!  I've also read the idea that the increase in allergies we see is due to living in a world that is too sterile already.  Just wonder what excessive distancing/protection not just to covid germs, but to all germs, might do to us!

Edited by Bubbles
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1 hour ago, Heathcliff said:

But then there's the question of homemade, bought, or cloth masks. It might be that these help, but some sources have said they may even make you more likely to be infected - if droplets get on the cloth and seep into it, you may be more likely to inhale them.

this would be prevented by many/most/all people who are able to do so wearing masks

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1 hour ago, Heathcliff said:

I'm becoming quite confused now about the issue of masks. There seems to be conflicting advice.

The advice from the government here (say what you like about them) and the WHO was that healthy people don't benefit from wearing masks, but some doctors were disagreeing and saying wearing masks should become the norm.

I am very much aware, and worried, about taking supplies away from the NHS as I have said - as if we can protect ourselves by staying home and social distancing, and a mask provides mininmal benefit if any - what right have I to take that mask from a doctor or nurse treating Covid patients? It's not just unwise, it's wrong.

But then there's the question of homemade, bought, or cloth masks. It might be that these help, but some sources have said they may even make you more likely to be infected - if droplets get on the cloth and seep into it, you may be more likely to inhale them.

And there always is the issue that a mask makes you more likely to touch your face around the eyes.

For the moment I am not wearing a mask, I am waiting for governement guidance. My dad (who is a biochemist) was fairly neutral on the topic, and I am willing to trust his opinion a certain distance too.

1. Per the CDC, they are more effective than wearing nothing.  They are not as effective as a medically compliant masks such as an N95 or even a surgical mask, but they are far more effective than nothing as evidenced by this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7108646/pdf/S1935789313000438a.pdf

I have not seen a single study that says they make you more likely to be infected.  But if you find one, I’d be interested in reading it  

 

2.  It has been shown that with a mask you are LESS likely to touch your face and eyes. 
 

3. you need to be concerned about taking medical grade masks away from health care providers unless you have a serious health condition that would warrant one.   You don’t need to worry about taking a cloth mask from health care providers; those are considered the last resort in mask use.

Edited by aggedy_ann
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31 minutes ago, Bubbles said:

I'm kinda worried about what it might mean for the future.  As far as I know, but I'm no expert, we build our immune systems by being exposed to germs and fighting them.  By distancing and wearing protection for a prolonged period, we'll reduce this exposure, and I'd worry that in the long run we are actually weakening ourselves and our immune responses, not just to covid, but to all simple illnesses too - but maybe someone with more infection control background than me could tell me if I am right or wrong about that!  I've also read the idea that the increase in allergies we see is due to living a world that is too sterile already.  Just wonder what excessive distancing/protection not just to covid germs, but to all germs, might do to us!

My former life as an infection preventionist gives me so many thoughts, and I have to go to work!   Will definitely respond later

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this post by an actual expert in the field of disease containment explains rlly well about what precautions to take, why, and what not to do. if you're at all confused about what you should or shouldn't be doing, please do read it. 

https://www.linkedin.com/content-guest/article/saving-your-health-one-mask-time-peter-tippett-md-phd

it's very unambiguous and thorough

tl;dr:

•yes wear cloth masks whenever you leave your home

•wash your hands any time you've been outside your home

•don't touch your face until after you've washed your hands

•wash your mask frequently

•don't touch the outside of your mask

•wash your hands after you've touched your mask at all

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I must say I have some questions about this article.

"So How Does a Mask Really Work?  

It hasn't been measured for COVID, but I suspect that almost any mask, no matter how poor, is more effective than a seat belt is in your car"

Well, does he know either way? He suspects? This article doesn't seem to be published in a journal. Is it just on Linked In?

I am not saying this article is without merit. And it seems now the US is saying we should wear cloth masks. But don't take an article on Linked In as a scientific paper.

P.S.:

This comment:

"Not sure why you consider the outside of a mask contaminated"

If it couldn't be contaminated, what in the world would be the point of wearing it??

Edited by Heathcliff
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heathcliff the man has some hefty credentials. more than YOU do to question his expertise with any reasonable credibility. please stop sewing needless doubt and confusion during such a time as this when confusion in itself is dangerous.

as the man states near the begining of his article, "I am an Internal Medicine-certified, Emergency Room MD with a PhD in Biochemistry. I have also spent much of my professional life in the high-tech world helping people understand how risk, infection, and the growth of infection behaves." 

this is literally his life. this is what he knows about, has studied extensively, and DOES for a living.

it does not matter whether he published this in a scientific journal or on linkedin, it doesn't make him suddenly less reputable somehow just because he chose a more accessible platform to publish on. 

eta: please excuse the formatting, as i'm on mobile and have no way of fixing. it's just DOING that.

also eta: as always the comments section of this article is NOT the relevant information i was linking to. please disregard anyone being a fool down there, and please just read the expert's information.

Edited by •.*°•☆. Q .☆•°*.•
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Understood. I apologise. (Also posted from mobile so excuse formatting).

it was not my intention to spread confusion. I was only concerned because some things I had read on the BBC and other places (reputable sources) had said cloth masks sometimes did more harm than good. I just want to make sure we have the best information possible.

but you are right- I will respect this person’s credentials as an expert - wherever this article was published.

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It is not yet illegal to go outside mask-less in the Netherlands. If it were, I think I would not be able to cope. 

I cannot wear a mask. Not over my mouth and nose. I would be terrified and have trouble breathing in no time. It would upset my vision and my balance.

If the face mask becomes compulsory here, I will be unable to go to work, get my own groceries, and get exercise. Because I cannot wear a mask.

I know I don't matter as an individual, but I'm just scared (and hoping that this is still the support thread).

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