Troubled Blood - J.K. Rowling

[bloom]

38 minutes ago, Owlinatree said:

(I don't know who was criticizing your story, to be clear)

it was me, and i specifically did explain what you also go on to explain in your post -- that many people of color do not enjoy being likened to things that are explicitly meant for consumption. so yes, heath is arguing in bad faith here about something that was very patiently explained to him a very long time ago that he apparently can't let go. maybe he will take your explanation more seriously than he took mine, but i somehow doubt it

[Jack]

1. I just ordered the book. Unlike other persons I need to experience something (either a book a movie or generally anything) before casting a judgement on it. And since JK Rowling was one of the main authors of my childhood, I think she deserves a try (specially since these are not kids books anymore). I may open a new thread in the future with a full review.
2. Today is a cross dressed man. Tomorrow it can be anything else. Personally, if you search for offenses instead of growing up past them (which I call adulting) you are likely to find them everywhere. I guess I can label ANY PRODUCT in this world as offensive one way or the other if I have the intention towards it. Living in a bubble takes you nowhere. Getting proud of what you are regardless of things or people you dont agree with is the way. If you think a book is transphobic... then just dont buy it XDD And tell other people your POV but stop criminalising those that may have a different opinion. You are not the center of the universe. Its as simple as that. Besides... boycotts can hardly make any difference if you are not buying it since the very begining innit ?
3. I choose a book based on its theme and quality. Not based on its creators skin colour (which often I dont even know unless I look for pictures of what the authors looks like). Its the story what should get your attention. Reading a book because the writer is a person of a certain colour or race seems actually quite racist per se.
4. For pretending to be the "tolerant"... i see a quite harsh attitude among you all. Like you are all the true enlightened persons here and are trying to show Heathcliff the right and luminous way or something. Like living in a bubble, thinking your word is the absolute truth, takes you nowhere if the best of cases (and turns you in the same kind of bigotry you are try to fight against... in the worst).


And last but not least: This is just an anonyme internet profile. Critisising this is like critisising a poster in the wall. Pointless. So I sugest you criticize my ideas instead of a bunch of old messages I may have posted in the past here. Attacking the person behing the ideas instead of the ideas themselves shows a lacking not only of arguments but of humanity. Attacking, not even a person... but an anonyme profile... shows both and also a lack of intelligence. What I post here is just, after all, what I want you to see. And nothing else. Dont forget it    

[Stimuli]

1 hour ago, Jack said:

1. I just ordered the book. Unlike other persons I need to experience something (either a book a movie or generally anything) before casting a judgement on it. And since JK Rowling was one of the main authors of my childhood, I think she deserves a try (specially since these are not kids books anymore). I may open a new thread in the future with a full review.
2. Today is a cross dressed man. Tomorrow it can be anything else. Personally, if you search for offenses instead of growing up past them (which I call adulting) you are likely to find them everywhere. I guess I can label ANY PRODUCT in this world as offensive one way or the other if I have the intention towards it. Living in a bubble takes you nowhere. Getting proud of what you are regardless of things or people you dont agree with is the way. If you think a book is transphobic... then just dont buy it XDD And tell other people your POV but stop criminalising those that may have a different opinion. You are not the center of the universe. Its as simple as that. Besides... boycotts can hardly make any difference if you are not buying it since the very begining innit ?
3. I choose a book based on its theme and quality. Not based on its creators skin colour (which often I dont even know unless I look for pictures of what the authors looks like). Its the story what should get your attention. Reading a book because the writer is a person of a certain colour or race seems actually quite racist per se.
4. For pretending to be the "tolerant"... i see a quite harsh attitude among you all. Like you are all the true enlightened persons here and are trying to show Heathcliff the right and luminous way or something. Like living in a bubble, thinking your word is the absolute truth, takes you nowhere if the best of cases (and turns you in the same kind of bigotry you are try to fight against... in the worst).


And last but not least: This is just an anonyme internet profile. Critisising this is like critisising a poster in the wall. Pointless. So I sugest you criticize my ideas instead of a bunch of old messages I may have posted in the past here. Attacking the person behing the ideas instead of the ideas themselves shows a lacking not only of arguments but of humanity. Attacking, not even a person... but an anonyme profile... shows both and also a lack of intelligence. What I post here is just, after all, what I want you to see. And nothing else. Dont forget it    

that's an awfully long text about how people are easily offended

 

 

[bloom]

3 hours ago, Jack said:

but stop criminalising those that may have a different opinion.

it's not illegal to have bigoted opinions anywhere actually. hope the google definition clears up any confusion you may have ❤️

also, can't speak for anyone else, but i will never, ever say i am or pretend to be tolerant. i'm not. i have a zero tolerance policy for bigotry, as should anyone. (intolerance paradox.)

Edited November 9, 2020 by jejune

[Owlinatree]

9 hours ago, Jack said:

For pretending to be the "tolerant"... i see a quite harsh attitude among you all.

Where did I say this??? Like jejune, I literally never said I was tolerant of bigotry in any form. Please, at least address things I said rather than your hateful strawman depiction of what you think I am.

I think you're confused about my goals here. I wasn't trying to convince you, or Heathcliff, of anything. I am interested in dialogue, but only with those who would engage me in good faith. Rather, I went to all the trouble of laying that out because I'm sure there are people reading along who might have had the same questions or thoughts, but who haven't formed solid opinions, possibly due to lack of exposure to people of color.

Also, as an aside, what's up with your insistence that people of color are actually racist for making observations about our own lived experience? I'm not "offended" by the whole crowd of snowflakes who fall into the "actually, I think acknowledging race is racist," but I do think it's kind of embarrassing. That's just me, though. I am kind of interested in knowing what makes you so upset when you see people talking about racism. Like, not to offend your delicate sensibilities, but maybe you should seek out more writing by women of color. Why do you believe me to be living in a bubble, when you are the one refusing to consciously engage with media made by people who are unlike you? I've read a lot of books by white men. I didn't have to look for them, because white authors dominate the field and the education system. Doing otherwise takes effort, and I do invite you to try.

[Mario]

For someone who claims to only pass judgments on things you've experienced personally, Jack, you sure are happy to pass judgments on people who have experienced things you have never and will never experience personally.

Are you trans, Jack? Have you been the victim of transphobia? Oh, the answer is no? Then you do not get to decide whether or not someone should be "offended" by transphobia, or whether a given thing is transphobic or not. You have not experienced it. You have never faced it. You do not know what it is like, and never will. And yet you sit on your lofty throne and proclaim that actually, it's not that bad, really, you just need to toughen up and stop being so offended by things! How in God's name would you know? When did you suddenly become an authority on the subject? Why should we listen to your opinion on what transphobia is and not, you know, actual trans people?

Get the fuck off your high horse and realize that you do not, in fact, know everything. When I want to know if something is sexist, I'll ask a woman, not my male self. When I'm not sure if something is racist, I'll ask a person of color, not my pasty white ass. And when a trans person tells me, a cis man, that something is transphobic, I will listen to them, because--surprise!--they, not I, are the ones who have faced transphobia and know what it truly is. You and I are goddamned lucky we don't know. The least you could do is acknowledge that.

[Jack]

Ok so... what is bigotry then ? Do you define it ? Are you like... any kind of moral authority to define what bigotry is a whats not ? Cause I just pointed what I think (remember... just an opinion) is wrong about your way of thinking. Dissagreing with you is... bigotry ? In that case and since you have "no tolerance" for bigotry... then... you cant tolerate people thinking different than you ? So yep... if you wanted to act like a dictator... you are on the right way I guess. You probably voted against Trump recently... but you are so much like him XDD

And Im not "refusing" any people. What im saying is that when I look for books, I look for ideas. Contempt. Good stories. I dont care absolutely about the skin colour or the author neither about his personal opinions or beliefs. I look after his work. Actually, I dont know if you realize but an author is just... a name in a cover. Unless you are curious about what he looks like (which Im not). So actually... Im not sure about how many "colour authors" I have read. Cause I dont care. And when you put identities (gender, skin colour, sexuality, etc) of a person BEFORE his/her ideas... then you are the bigot. Equality is about not caring about the people's traits  but about her ideas, without making any distinction. Being black doesnt makes you a good person and being white doesnt mean you are evil. Its your ideas and acts whats do it. At least thats what I think and what I will keep defending forever. 

[Jack]

13 hours ago, Mario said:

For someone who claims to only pass judgments on things you've experienced personally, Jack, you sure are happy to pass judgments on people who have experienced things you have never and will never experience personally.

Are you trans, Jack? Have you been the victim of transphobia? Oh, the answer is no? Then you do not get to decide whether or not someone should be "offended" by transphobia, or whether a given thing is transphobic or not. You have not experienced it. You have never faced it. You do not know what it is like, and never will. And yet you sit on your lofty throne and proclaim that actually, it's not that bad, really, you just need to toughen up and stop being so offended by things! How in God's name would you know? When did you suddenly become an authority on the subject? Why should we listen to your opinion on what transphobia is and not, you know, actual trans people?

Get the fuck off your high horse and realize that you do not, in fact, know everything. When I want to know if something is sexist, I'll ask a woman, not my male self. When I'm not sure if something is racist, I'll ask a person of color, not my pasty white ass. And when a trans person tells me, a cis man, that something is transphobic, I will listen to them, because--surprise!--they, not I, are the ones who have faced transphobia and know what it truly is. You and I are goddamned lucky we don't know. The least you could do is acknowledge that.

Is not about me deciding anything. Is a general attitude. I may not be a trans but I surely had my own load of shit. And I grew past it. It cant affect me anymore. Thats whats suppose to happen when you mature. You accept yourself as you are and you focus on the people and things that makes you happy while ignoring or walking past the things that try to hurt you. I call it personal development.
However, if you focus on what upsets and annoys you and instead of ignoring it and keep walking you decide to cry and complain till it dissapears (or even worse... you search for it) then... you are absoluty directed towards an unhappy life. Forever. Cause (im sure you know this) the world is not a happy place. You are the center of nothing. Out there nobody cares about you. And sooner than later you will find a problem that wont just vanish because of you complaining. And you will not have the means to overcome that. You just wont know how. And the proof of this is that this huge anger upset reaction was triggered... by a fictional character... that appears in a book... that nobody here read (apart from Heathcliff) and that affects nobody daily life. That shows a true lack of real problems there. Cause people with real problems (a work, a family, a mortgage, a serious disabling disease, war, hunger... for naming just a few) just... dont have the time to be upset by something so absurdly small. And if you do... well... I guess you are a truly privileged one. You clearly dont know what suffering is. So you should stop playing the victim...

And yes. You can think something is transphobic and share your views (hell you can think whatever). And in that case the opinion of a trans person would obviously have more weight. But reacting to this in such an angered way... thats the real (lack of) problems.

Oooh and... I will rather ask a sociologist/psychologe/carer/any people with knowledge and experience about racism and sexism, regarldless of genders and colour rather than a random person. You know... ideas and experience over identities :) 

[bloom]

3 hours ago, Jack said:

Cause people with real problems (a work, a family, a mortgage, a serious disabling disease, war, hunger... for naming just a few) just... dont have the time to be upset by something so absurdly small. And if you do... well... I guess you are a truly privileged one. You clearly dont know what suffering is. So you should stop playing the victim...

i live with a severe neuromuscular disorder that causes me agonizing pain basically every second of every day. i have a brain that loves to want to kill itself on a regular basis and have had multiple long, extensive psych ward stays over the last few years, including receiving many courses of electroshock treatment. i will not be able to work for a long time, if ever, and i live on $720 a month, in what is basically destitute poverty. i cannot afford to pay my bills; my gas will likely be shut off at the end of the month, just as it's getting very cold, unless i can beg, borrow, and plead from more people and rely on their charity yet again. these are all current circumstances, things that are still ongoing that i cannot "grow past" because they are still occurring (more on that in a minute).  additionally, i grew up being verbally and emotionally abused and once i left that situation i graduated to being verbally, emotionally, AND sexually abused by my ex husband, followed by another severely emotionally and verbally abusive relationship.

all that to say: i know what hardship is and i know what suffering is. i'm not laying this out here because suffering is a fucking contest or anything, because i think that's a pretty putrid worldview, and that's very much not the point. i'm spilling my personal life here because, uh, on top of all of that, i am trans, and i can say (unlike you, who has no frame of reference for this) that transphobia is actually still a huge fucking deal, even on top of all of the other garbage that occurs in a marginalized person's life. it isn't something you can "grow past"  because it is society-wide and surrounds you at every turn. it would be like if someone was beating the absolute shit out of you every single day and you had no way out but you were being told to grow past it even as the daily beatings continued. you can get used to it, but you can't get over it. not while it continues.

lol @ the idea that a "carer" has more experience with whatever issue than the people they care for do, too, also

[March Hare]

On 11/7/2020 at 9:45 PM, Heathcliff said:

Question 2: prominent famous author who sells a truckload of books, is one easy definition.

I would take that to be the definition of "popular", rather than "high-profile". Or are those the same thing, in your opinion? When it comes to books?

 

On 11/7/2020 at 9:45 PM, Heathcliff said:

Question 1: I can't think of one, which makes me quite ashamed. But I'm not going to read one book by a woman of colour purely to tick the box. And I don't believe you would expect that, as you're not stupid. I'll read one when I get round to it because it looks good.

Of course, it wouldn't be purely to tick the box. It would be to expand your worldview. I have read MANY books by women, unfortunately only maybe four or five? by women of colour, but at least two of those four or five are among the most beautiful and mind-enriching books I have ever read in my entire life. On Beauty by Zadie Smith is one. Girl, Woman, Other by Bernardine Evaristo is another. These two are incredibly, staggeringly wonderful novels that I recommend unreservedly to everybody in the entire world.

On 11/7/2020 at 9:45 PM, Heathcliff said:

I'm a pretty poor reader as an adult- in the sense I got out of the habit of reading, and never really read frequently again. I read sporadically.

Well, that's good to know. It puts your statements and opinions in the proper context.

Reading is something that you can always go back to, by the way. I hope you may in the future. There really aren't any downsides, and the upsides are LEGION.

#ReadMoreWomen

[March Hare]

On 11/9/2020 at 3:33 PM, Jack said:

3. I choose a book based on its theme and quality. Not based on its creators skin colour (which often I dont even know unless I look for pictures of what the authors looks like). Its the story what should get your attention.

We may think that that is our manner of choosing, because that coincides with how we like to think of ourselves as people in the world. However, I think it is important to examine one's motivations on a regular basis, in accordance with different perspectives and as many aspects of the human condition as are conceivable. We owe that to our own intellects.

The reason we choose whether or not to read a book is usually based on what we have heard/read other people say about it. Very little of that will be about theme; even less of it will be about quality. Most of what you get to know about a book before you've read it, is how reading the book made other people feel - which is built up on how much of the story's world and people they related to. There is no text without context. Barthes was wrong.

4 hours ago, Jack said:

You know... ideas and experience over identities

Do you really think that experience and identity have so little to do with each other? What shapes our identity, if not our experiences?

[•.*°•☆. Q .☆•°*.•]

jack smells strongly of troll and intentionally bad faith arguments tbh

anyway @Heathcliff wrt reading something "just to tick a box" that take could not have missed the point any harder. it's not so you can "tick a box" it's so that you can experience a worldview that doesn't align so closely with your own, and it's about broadening your horizons through that experience 

[Owlinatree]

18 hours ago, •.*°•☆. Q .☆•°*.• said:

jack smells strongly of troll and intentionally bad faith arguments tbh

Yeah lol I think his combination of mind-bogglingly incomprehensible arguments and inflammatory word choices ("a trans") + lack of proofreading is kind of funny tbh. Anyway sorry to have derailed a bit! 

[•.*°•☆. Q .☆•°*.•]

3 hours ago, Owlinatree said:

Yeah lol I think his combination of mind-bogglingly incomprehensible arguments and inflammatory word choices ("a trans") + lack of proofreading is kind of funny tbh. Anyway sorry to have derailed a bit! 

you're all good! i've been extremely appreciating your well thought out thorough and patient responses. you've said a lot that i couldn't put into words myself. ❤️

[Heathcliff]

On 11/11/2020 at 2:21 AM, •.*°•☆. Q .☆•°*.• said:

anyway @Heathcliff wrt reading something "just to tick a box" that take could not have missed the point any harder.

Please note that is not what I wrote. What I said is that I acknowledge I've read virtually no books by women of colour, but I would not just read one so I could tick a box. I'd read it because it was something that really interested me.

The book Maru mentioned, "Girl, Woman, Other" actually interests me a lot since I heard about it on the radio. But I've spent this year getting depressed in lockdown, drinking far too much as a result, almost losing my job, and then working damn hard to keep it. So please do not have a go at me just now for not reading widely enough.

[Heathcliff]

On 11/10/2020 at 7:59 PM, March Hare said:

We may think that that is our manner of choosing, because that coincides with how we like to think of ourselves as people in the world. However, I think it is important to examine one's motivations on a regular basis, in accordance with different perspectives and as many aspects of the human condition as are conceivable. We owe that to our own intellects. 

What a load of pious, patronising garbage. The next time I choose a book to read shall I check it with you to find out whether it's suitable?

God forbid people just read what they like, for pleasure. 🙁

[•.*°•☆. Q .☆•°*.•]

@Heathcliff i'm sure you won't mind if i move our conversation to the appropriate location if you wanna go to THAT place. meet you in the pit.

 

[Owlinatree]

9 hours ago, Heathcliff said:

but I would not just read one so I could tick a box. I'd read it because it was something that really interested me.

I encourage you to actually do so, just do it with care! The things we find interesting as concepts are shaped by our own identities and experiences, and oftentimes that manifests in just "not being interested" in media that explores uncomfortable themes or ideas that aren't consistent with what we already enjoy and look for. At least think about looking for books written by authors of underrepresented backgrounds. Oftentimes this takes more effort to find, because the publishing and marketing industries don't exactly prioritize these books.

I think we've been talking past each other on this point, and I wanted to expand a little on where I'm coming from here. What's so wrong or unappealing about considering whose voice you are uplifting when you choose a book to read? It sounds like if you had continued in the vein you were in before this conversation and Maru's recommendation, you would have simply never read a book by a woman of color. Doesn't that feel limiting? Why not make a good faith effort to broaden your horizons? And if not books, then short stories, articles, poetry, even films and tv. It doesn't hurt to think about whose stories and whose authorship you  are supporting when you watch or read things.

I don't mean to judge you for not reading books during quarantine, by the way. I haven't been reading books either. This is just to keep in mind the next time you are thinking about getting into a new book.

Also to close this out, I don't consider myself a moral authority or anything of the sort. I'm not saying I'm better than you, and I'm not saying you should check your media habits with me personally or anything like that. That would be ridiculous. I'm just speaking from my experience as a person who would actually really appreciate more people taking a conscious interest in media that tells stories about people like me, because the industry does not support that. As of now, it takes effort and personal responsibility on the part of consumers, and while that shouldn't be the case, it is. 

[Shay]

I don't really have anything I want to say about the original topic of this thread, but I did want to add my thoughts about the whole reading books by women/people of color thing. When I first read some of that conversation, my gut reaction was also along the lines of I really don't care what the authors look like and as such I usually don't bother to look up pictures of them (I generally don't do this with singers/musicians I listen to either) so I couldn't even really answer the question of how many books by people or women of color I've read. I generally just go by the book description and read what sounds interesting. For all I know I could have read several people of color and have no idea! I'd love to think that I'm sound in the knowledge that I'm not intentionally avoiding any groups of people when I choose my reading.

However, this conversation made me stop and examine things and made me wonder if I really should be making a special effort here to find more books by people of color that I might be interested in. Then as I was discussing this subject with my mother I realized a couple of things. The first was along the lines of what @Owlinatree was saying about how you can expose yourself to content other than books by people of color and I remembered that when it comes to stand up comedy, I watch people of various ethnicities, sexual orientations, and gender identities. So while it's unclear how many books I've actually read by people of color, I can say that I have watched quite a lot of comedians of color. And you can't even brush off stand up comedy as not being important because while they are telling jokes, they are also often discussing important topics, and sometimes the shows can get as serious as a ted talk for at least part of the show.

The second thing I realized as I was discussing this subject with my mother is that I'm actually reading a book right now by a person of color, albeit a man. And I find it hilarious how long it took me to realize that the author I was reading was a person of color because it's actually pretty obvious just from his name (not to mention the fact that this is the third time I'm reading this book), but that's how little I actually think about race when I'm choosing my reading.

Anyway, I think I'm okay on this front, but I am grateful for this topic because it's always good to critically re-examine these things and be more mindful.

[March Hare]

On 11/14/2020 at 8:52 PM, Heathcliff said:

What a load of pious, patronising garbage. The next time I choose a book to read shall I check it with you to find out whether it's suitable?

God forbid people just read what they like, for pleasure. 🙁

It saddens me that you would accuse me of being patronising when I try to convey my willingness to take people's reading habits seriously as a subject matter.

[March Hare]

On 11/15/2020 at 6:27 AM, Owlinatree said:

I don't mean to judge you for not reading books during quarantine, by the way. I haven't been reading books either. This is just to keep in mind the next time you are thinking about getting into a new book.

Also to close this out, I don't consider myself a moral authority or anything of the sort. I'm not saying I'm better than you, and I'm not saying you should check your media habits with me personally or anything like that. That would be ridiculous. I'm just speaking from my experience as a person who would actually really appreciate more people taking a conscious interest in media that tells stories about people like me, because the industry does not support that. As of now, it takes effort and personal responsibility on the part of consumers, and while that shouldn't be the case, it is. 

This is excellently said.

Reading, by the way, is ALWAYS for pleasure, when you do it voluntarily. I think that it's a good thing to put pleasure first when it comes to reading. But pleasure is not always about staying within your comfort zone. Pleasure is also about going on adventures and exploring the great wide unknowns of non-obvious book choices. That possibility is open to all of us who have access to books. And films. And shows. And all storytelling media.

My position in this discourse is really very simple: the more different stories about the more different people, the better. There is really nothing else behind anything I have said in this whole dang thread.

My stance on the hate against trans folk really can't be expressed clearly outside the Snake Pit.