Slash stories (18+)

[Shay]

Whether it's sneeze fic or otherwise, I find that I really do love m/m slash stories. I have no idea why it's such a turn on because I'm sure that in real life, two guys going at it wouldn't do much for me.

My sister likes to read Harry Potter fanfics (obviously not the sneezy kind) and she reads a lot of Harry Potter m/m slash fics. I asked her what made the slash so appealing and she didn't have any idea either.

Does anyone who likes this sort of thing have any idea why?

[tma]

My theory.... double the guys first off. Then- well... a lot of the slash that I've read is angsty or hurt/comfort stuff. And.... well- something about a guy taking care of another guy.

Oh... and I usually find that the slash community (at least with my fandoms) tends to be a Lot more open minded to kink. And that is always fun.

[Geist]

Well, I think two guys together are absolutely hot as hell, so that's why I like it. I feel the same way about girls to a degree, but more so for men. Slash tends to be extremely passionate and touches on the sides of the male ego that many authors miss with heterosexual fiction. And the bonus? There's not some annoying, "perfect" little Mary Sue character that all of the men are chasing. That's part of why I DESPISE most romantic het fiction.....it's usually the beautiful, unattainable woman that all the men want with a heart of ice but SOME MAN MELTS IT, zomg! Or, it's the "ugly duckling" who is turned into a swan by Prince Charming. Please. I'll pass.

I generally don't like het fiction, btw, but the authors on THIS forum do a fine job of it! It's pretty much the only het fiction I like. If the man is doing the sneezing, I'll generally always read it.

[Lady Tori]

I effin' love to read Beatles slash stories, specifically, about John and Paul. There are tons of them on the internet. While I find het romantic stories hot too, I really love slash because there are no girl characters to be "jealous" of in the stories.

That could just be me though, maybe I am totally messed up...

[Shay]

Those are some good points made, I'm still not sure if it applies to why I enjoy slash so much, but it'll give me something to think about.

BTW whichever mod changed the post title to have (18+) in it, thanks. It didn't really occur to me at the time I made the post that the discussion would end up that way.

[Lady Tori]

BTW whichever mod changed the post title to have (18+) in it, thanks. It didn't really occur to me at the time I made the post that the discussion would end up that way.

That was me No problem.

I forgot to add that even though I don't get really that aroused by it (not the same way I do to sneezing stories, wavs etc ) I find it titillating and that's why I read it. I've been reading/writing/fantasizing about het stories for over half of my life now and that's gotten boring, so slash kind of spices things up for me, especially when it's about at least one guy I find attractive

[Guest member052]

I am not a kind of person who likes slash, so I can only give an outsider's psychoanalytic point of view. It is the slash community's responsibility to review these points honestly and carefully to see if they are acceptable.

Casually, the sneeze fetish itself revolves around a dominance/submission dichotomy. What makes it so powerful is that the sneezer has no idea he or she is being dominated (by the sneeze?). In the brain, there are regions inhabited by a special type of neuron called a mirror neuron. These neurons are responsible for empathy and projection. When a person is overcome with a sneeze or sneezing fit, a bystander with a sneeze fetish will use mirror neurons to empathize with the sneeze and dominate the person.

Obviously, not everyone has a sneeze fetish, so not everyone is able to use mirror neurons in this way. There are other fetishes that use mirror neurons in similar ways. I believe that everything that involves sex involves dominance and submission. This is why so many heterosexuals have brief flings with homosexuality. The sex of the submissive party does not matter. All that is required to reach orgasm is an utmost feeling of dominance over a sex object. Sometimes a person is not even required. This is how object fetishes like shoe and panty fetishes, and all the other "strange" fetishes can exist.

Fetishes usually exist in people who could not have a normal sexual upbringing due to some malignant, variable factor, like an overbearing mother or a relentlessly teasing sibling. In other words, fetishes exist only in people who have been dominated and need to make up for lost dominance. Pedophiles like children because they put up so little of a fight. Necrophiles like dead bodies because they put up no fight at all. All of these fetishes come from people whose upbringings have been comprimised.

They aren't a bad thing. It is just the human brain compensating for lost ground. It really is a plastic thing, human psychology, able to adapt to anything.

In terms of m/m slash, the opportunity to watch one guy get dominated by another guy is priceless. Some people use mirror neurons on the submissive guy ("please stop..."), some use them on the dominant guy ("if you'd just shut up you could see that this won't hurt"). It depends on the kind of person you are. Sneezing fetish is just a small facet of the m/m pairing.

It might sound stupid, but in my experience, psychological makeup has absolutely no respect for style...

But really, someone who likes slash AND knows psychology should comment on this... I am not helpful. There are so many variations on how m/m can be liked that someone who has an m/m fetish should carefully examine his or her desire to see which particular person he or she is.

[Geist]

I'm a bit too tired to go into why I don't agree with some things mentioned here, but I'll bring up my main point briefly....

Not all slash is a dominant/submissive act. I write a great deal of very tender, romantic moments between my two Muses. Gender has nothing to do with it, really. I just love these two individuals together and that's all there is to it for me. No "gender" issues.

Interesting read, though!

[lk]

I'm going to respond to this in pieces, to reflect the ways I agree and disagree with various elements of what you say.

I am not a kind of person who likes slash, so I can only give an outsider's psychoanalytic point of view. It is the slash community's responsibility to review these points honestly and carefully to see if they are acceptable.

Is your point of view really psychoanalytic? Parts of it are, parts of it aren't. The neuroscience stuff doesn't tend to fit with the psychological explanations. That's not just about you: most people who do neuroscience thought that Freud was an armchair scientist at best, and most people who respect psychoanalysis think that people in neuroscience tend to prefer very crude psychological explanations. (They're both right.)

Casually, the sneeze fetish itself revolves around a dominance/submission dichotomy. What makes it so powerful is that the sneezer has no idea he or she is being dominated (by the sneeze?). In the brain, there are regions inhabited by a special type of neuron called a mirror neuron. These neurons are responsible for empathy and projection. When a person is overcome with a sneeze or sneezing fit, a bystander with a sneeze fetish will use mirror neurons to empathize with the sneeze and dominate the person.

I'm going to take your word for it on the neuroscience, but even so, the appeal to mirror neurons doesn't help you very much. Emphathy and projection are very capacious categories, and they aren't specific enough to hone in on sexuality or the dominance/submission aspects of sexuality. Pretty much any human interaction will involve emphathy and projection of some kind, because the only way to interpret human behavior is to assume that the other person is responding in some way that you would recognize as a way you might respond.

And in what sense does empathy imply a wish to dominate the other person? That seems like a huge leap, and you need to justify it somehow. Now, if what you are saying is just that the fetishist is responding to is the weakness and helplessness of the sneezer, and that the sexual response is an urge to dominate, well, then we can talk about that idea and whether it makes sense. But that's a specific psychological story about a specific phenomenon. The general stuff about motor neurons and empathy doesn't help you establish that in any way. So leave it out, and stop trying to give it a scientific justification that it doesn't have.

Obviously, not everyone has a sneeze fetish, so not everyone is able to use mirror neurons in this way. There are other fetishes that use mirror neurons in similar ways. I believe that everything that involves sex involves dominance and submission. This is why so many heterosexuals have brief flings with homosexuality. The sex of the submissive party does not matter. All that is required to reach orgasm is an utmost feeling of dominance over a sex object. Sometimes a person is not even required. This is how object fetishes like shoe and panty fetishes, and all the other "strange" fetishes can exist.

Fetishes usually exist in people who could not have a normal sexual upbringing due to some malignant, variable factor, like an overbearing mother or a relentlessly teasing sibling. In other words, fetishes exist only in people who have been dominated and need to make up for lost dominance. Pedophiles like children because they put up so little of a fight. Necrophiles like dead bodies because they put up no fight at all. All of these fetishes come from people whose upbringings have been comprimised.

They aren't a bad thing. It is just the human brain compensating for lost ground. It really is a plastic thing, human psychology, able to adapt to anything.

I do find some version of this story plausible. And I did want to say that I was very glad to see it here, because I don't think we do enough here to discuss fetishes in general, and the relation of our fetish to other fetishes. Nor are people willing to say anything that suggests that our backgrounds were abnormal in some way, because that would seem to suggest that our fetish is wrong or immoral, or that there is one normal path and it is the right one. So people, please don't write back and say this kind of account is saying that. It isn't. All it is saying is that we are different in some way, which we just are, and that this difference needs to be explained, in a way that other people's desires don't always have to be explained. (Even though there is a lot to explain about sexuality in general.)

That said, I still have my doubts that sexuality is always about dominance and submission, and even if it is, I think that the interplay of dominance and submission is much more subtle and complicated than you suggest here, particularly when it comes to fetishes, ours and others. I just don't think the fetish is simply about the wish to dominate others. I think it also has a lot to do with showing weakness, and being willing to show weakness, and the interplay of that with feelings about control and domination. I don't think I'm really disagreeing with you: I think that your own account just has to be more complicated than what you actually say here. A fetish just isn't about the desire to dominate shoes or children or sneezers. Like you say, it's really about the fetishist and his or own feelings. It's easy to dominate things, and much harder to say what would be satisfying to someone who has complicated feelings about dominance and submission. Why did we get fixated on sneezes, and others went for shoes? Yes, the human brain is plastic, but these are very different routes, and the story about domination and submission just can't be the same for both.

In terms of m/m slash, the opportunity to watch one guy get dominated by another guy is priceless. Some people use mirror neurons on the submissive guy ("please stop..."), some use them on the dominant guy ("if you'd just shut up you could see that this won't hurt"). It depends on the kind of person you are. Sneezing fetish is just a small facet of the m/m pairing.

It might sound stupid, but in my experience, psychological makeup has absolutely no respect for style...

It does seem to me that there is a lot more going on in m/m slash than one guy dominating another. As people say above, there is a good deal of hurt/comfort stuff going on in these stories, and again that has a good deal to do with showing (and sometimes sharing) weakness, and not just with a simple urge to dominate.

Why is it "priceless" for women to watch one guy get dominated by another guy? I don't see that you've explained that at all. One thing that strikes me about m/m slash, especially the hurt/comfort version that often shows up in sneeze fetish fiction, is that it features a much more "feminized" version of males. That's a big part of the appeal, I think. They're not just feminine, of course; their masculinity is a big part of it, but then they surrender it, and that's a key. The appeal of m/m slash does not seem to be like what the crude appeal of f/f situations is for some straight men: if one woman is good, than two would be better, and let's get rid of all the other men so that I can have the woman, or all the women, all to myself. Maybe some women like m/m slash in that way, but I doubt many do. Something is going on where women are inventing a world in which men are still men, but yet much more like women too. That's what I think we need to understand better, and the right kind of story about it would talk just as much about gender roles as about dominance and submission in general.

But really, someone who likes slash AND knows psychology should comment on this... I am not helpful. There are so many variations on how m/m can be liked that someone who has an m/m fetish should carefully examine his or her desire to see which particular person he or she is.

Well, I am not particularly a slash fan myself, but I commented anyway. I like this kind of psychological question, and so it seemed a fitting occasion for my 200th post. Getting to 200 took me almost four years (five days to spare). I suppose I just am not very chatty. On the other hand, many of my posts, like this one, probably went on way too long. Does that count?

[Shay]

Wow, maybe someone will translate all that member052 and Ik said into something simpler? I took a break from my chemistry homework and I come on here and read that.... I think the chemistry was easier.

[Geist]

I'll do it for you, Kythe.

Some people like things for reasons they can't explain. They aren't always psychological and they do not always involve a love of "dom/sub" relationship in sex.

Thank God everyone is different.

The end!

~Aku

[Shay]

Thanks Aku, my brain has stopped hurting now. What would I do without you?

[Neesan]

Well... I was all for getting into this before all the confusing stuff attacked me at 7.30am which...should never happen to Kisa's tender brain. :<

Being that it's all POOT, here is my answer: It's hot.

Well come on, really! Does there really need to be a whole novel-length thoughts on why some people like to see two men get it on and why some don't?

Hell, even I don't like slash/yaoi sometimes. (Actually, mostly in HP where you can never find a m/f fic because APPARENTLY everyone is gay. That's just overboard and annoying.)

Or can't we accept that some people like things that other people don't? (Good god, if this forum hasn't taught us that much! One fetish branches off into a million sub-fetishes. LOL!)

Or am I missing something that my half-awake brain isn't getting?

[lk]

OK, I usually try to let this kind of stuff go, but I'm going to speak out this time. These last comments are uncalled for and downright rude.

It's fine just to like something and leave it at that. But Kythe specifically asked for more of an explanation, and so member052 kindly took the time to provide his thoughts. I didn't agree with some things he said, but I thought that he deserved a response that actually engaged with his ideas. That I took to be a sign of respect. If we said anything that was confusing, I would be happy to try to explain it more clearly, and I'm sure member052 would do the same.

But these comments don't actually ask for clarification.

Look, you don't have to agree with either of us, and you don't even have to care about what we are talking about. But why is our having a conversation an "attack" on anyone? Why are we "hurting" anyone's brains? How are we bothering you, or interfering with your enjoying the stories you like in an unreflective way, if that is what you want to do?

When you are not interested in a topic, when people care about things that you do not (anime, anyone?), the sensible and respectful thing to do is simply to leave the posts on that topic aside. Right?

Like Kisa says, we should be able to accept that some people like things that others do not. It is important to understand that neither member052 nor I failed there: we were trying to understand the appeal of certain stories, not to criticize anyone for liking them. Yes, some people do like things that others do not. Here's one: some people enjoy thinking hard about things, including or especially psychology. We think that if you reflect more on why people do what they do, why they care about what they do, then you'll have a richer, more interesting, and more fulfilling life. I urge you to consider that possibility. And if you decide it's not for you, then please accept that people who actually enjoy this kind of analysis are not hurting or bothering you in any way.

[Shay]

Wow, ok I never meant to attack anyone. The things I said simply meant that I really didn't understand what was being said very well and that I gave up when my head started to hurt. They weren't meant to be negative comments towards anyone, I was simply poking fun at my own lack of understanding. Sorry if I offended you or member052, but that was not my intention.

[lk]

Wow, ok I never meant to attack anyone. The things I said simply meant that I really didn't understand what was being said very well and that I gave up when my head started to hurt. They weren't meant to be negative comments towards anyone, I was simply poking fun at my own lack of understanding. Sorry if I offended you or member052, but that was not my intention.

Thanks; it's cool. If it had just been your post, I wouldn't have said anything. I didn't.

After a certain point, though, people saying "I don't want to think about that kind of stuff" starts to get tiresome (why do you need to say that, anyway?), and starts to suggest that we don't really need to have certain kinds of discussions around here. But this is an open discussion forum, after all, and even people with strange interests like mine are supposed to be able to talk too.

I'm not offended; I can take it. But eventually I get tired of listening to people dish it out. (What is it? Anti-intellectualism, that's what.)

I still would encourage you not to give up so easily, though. On anything.

[Sapphire]

If I didn't feel so guilty about not studying for my exams, I'd end up adding my own lengthy post to the mix. I love pondering psychological and even neurological explanations for the fetish and other aspects of sexuality. I once received a comment in a thread that I started to ponder such ideas, and the comment was something like "who cares? This is just the way it is." I still remember the gist of that comment and even who made it, and it's pretty disheartening. Some people like thinking about stuff like this, and some people don't, but there is no need to ridicule those who do.

[Neesan]

Good god, calm down a little bit.

I didn't mean attacking in the vicious sense of the word, first of all, I meant it in a light jovial way because it was early and it's just like, "the sunlight was attacking my eyes!" Just as that's meant something completely different than the more extreme sense of the word.

See? Instead of just trying to nitpick instead of reading, you just took my comment WAY out of context. I mean really, for something to put all this into a "the liking of slash and s/m is derived from the lower levels of consciousness" banter, you'd think you'd take a jovial comment just for what it was - not serious and fun.

Here; I'll try again.

I didn't see why there had to be that long comment about why people like it. "Can't people like something just for the sake of liking it?" THAT is where that comment comes from. But, in no way, was it meant to ridicule anyone for thinking along those lines. (groan!) As the people here who know me, I take things very lightly and when I need to ask a question, I'll do it in such a non-serious way that I'm sure some people will take it wrong. (Like it obviously was.)

So yeah, if you all got up in a huff about the comments that were in no way meant to ridicule or whatever they were taken as, so I'm sorry I was not very clear

I'm not offended; I can take it. But eventually I get tired of listening to people dish it out. (What is it? Anti-intellectualism, that's what.)

By the way, I don't think calling people stupid because they are unwilling to want to know about neurological/psychological aspects on why people like what they do is being very intelligent anyway. Esp. if said person was not even attacking those lines of thinking in the first place. ??

[Geist]

Calm down, lk. No one was attacking you or making fun of you. No one said, "U R STOOPID!" or anything like that. Don't take it so personally.

I gave Kythe what I believed to be the gist of the entire thread in a nutshell and it was neither rude nor inflammatory, so I do hope you weren't including my words in your commentary.

Kisa wasn't being rude and neither was Kythe. There was absolutely nothing "wrong" with their answers and they stated their points in a civil fashion. Yes, some of it was light-hearted, but JEEZUS, it's not a life-threatening issue, here. It's boys kissing boys.

I realize you then went back and accepted this and that's cool, but seriously..... written things sometimes have a different tone than spoken ones. Consider that.

~Aku

[Neesan]

Did I ever tell you that you were indeed a good choice for a mod, koi? XD I'd have gone and got me mallet. I KID. (I'll have to put that at the end of everything. D:!) *loves your face*

(By the way? You said "wrong". )

[tma]

lk- I can understand where you are coming from with the frustration though. It's almost like there is a threshold for little "jabs" (in fun or not) and sometimes you just get to the point where it really annoys you. And- (at least for me- I Know that the other people aren't Intending it that way- but sometimes I still need to just Arrrrgh)

Anyway... I don't really know much about the neuro-science part, and can't say anything one way or another. But it seemed like an interesting theory to me (even though, like lk I think that in some ways it seems a little simplistic in some areas).

I liked how lk noted about motivations for reading (and I think for writing) m/m seems different from f/f. I think that a discussion about how m/m slash differs from f/f, or if part of the difference has to do with the gender (or gener neutrality) of the writer could be really interesting.

To me... there *does* seem to be a difference in general in the content of the stories as a whole. At least the ones that I've read. Especially in regards to the sf ficts.

**NOTE** Ahead- I am speaking in terms of "trends". Not Everything fits generalizations, and I know this.

In my reading experience- the f/f seem more outwardly "Porn Without Plot" (which is fine- I'm Not discounting enjoying sexuality just for the heck of it) and there Tends to be more sneezing, and generally less dialogue.

But... m/m that I've read has had more angst, it is more "relationship" oriented- even if PWP (porn without plot). There is less sneezing, more dialogue and "build up"/ background.

I definately have prefered m/m to f/f things that I've read, but I don't think that either is "better". It's just interesting to me how they are different.

If these comments work in the "flow" of this thread- cool. If not- I'll make a new thread with this. Don't want to jack this.

[lk]

Thank you to everyone for responding. I'm calm. I think I was calm the whole time, even if I was critical, but like Akutenshi says, I have to consider the possibility that what I wrote might sound different to someone else.

I accept that the original posts were light-hearted and in fun. I am obviously at a disadvantage here, because I was the one who interrupted the fun and accused people of being rude. And of course my original overly long post wasn't meant as fun, even though I'm plenty happy to have fun in other contexts. (Really!) So I come off as the angry one here, the one who is not willing to be light-hearted and just have fun.

But the fun posts were themselves interrupting a more serious discussion, and what is more, they expressed an intellectual impatience (which is not at all the same as stupidity) with that discussion. That does include your post, Aku, because your summary only captured the point of the discussion if we agree that much of it can be ignored. That's what your closing phrase ("End of story") means, I submit. I also think that the reaction that I should lighten up and take non-serious comments less seriously is of a piece with the original posts that I criticized. At that moment, I was engaged in a serious discussion, and so the suggestion that I be less serious is out of place in this particular context. I don't care if other people don't want to participate in the discussion, or even read it. But there is no reason to suggest that I or anyone else shouldn't bother to take certain things seriously.

It is that suggestion that I saw in the posts that I criticized, especially taken collectively. I fully accept that no one -- not Kythe, not Aku, not Kisa -- intended to make that suggestion. But I still believe that the suggestion was made anyway. In that sense, I stand by my original post. I am not taking this personally; nor do I hold anything against any of the people who made the posts I criticized. I wanted to warn against a certain anti-intellectual tone that can sometimes creep in and inhibit discussion on this board. I am sorry that I had to express my own impatience in order to do that. I said in the critical post that I usually try to let these things go. This time, I felt I couldn't. But having warned against what I wanted to warn against, I consider this matter closed.

A great many thanks to Sapphire and tma for understanding.

[vote_for_pedro]

My first preference in fiction will always be m/f pairings. I try to be open and enjoy different stuff, but I can't always get into it. When it comes to slash I'm so picky, especially with m/m. The idea of two men having sex does not turn me on. It doesn't turn me off either. I'm neutral, might as well read about picking out new drapes. But my preference is to NOT have a sex scene in the story. I'd rather keep the sexual tension going. Sex spoils it for me, and I find that many m/m slash stories have a sex scene eventually. When the wonderful tension is released, I'm like a man in bed who wants to roll over and sleep.

I really like what tma said about porn without a plot (like any porn has a plot ). I would love to find some f/f fetish fiction that doesn't seem like it was written by a teenage boy in the throes of puberty. I'm not referring to any story in particular, so I hope no one takes offense! I just mean that I haven't read any recent f/f stuff that grabs me. Like I said, I'm the weirdo who doesn't want the characters to screw. However, I think I could enjoy a very well written f/f story more than a good m/m, with or without sex. I can't relate much with male characters, so it's difficult to put myself in the story and experience it vicariously.

[Lady Tori]

OK, I have some more things to say to throw into this mix, elaborating on things I previously said.

I said I like reading Beatles slash... there is only one reason for this, and that is because I find Paul to be the pinnacle of sexiness. The fact is that NOT much adult het fanfic about Paul exists out there, whereas I found a plethora of it in the slash communities. When I can find a het story, I read it and enjoy it too, probably more than the slash stories, not only because Beatles stories tend to be well written (on the whole) and so it can be really sexy if it's well written, but because I am heterosexual myself and so heterosexual sex is what I know best and love with my partner.

It's all a fantasy. Some of my favourite stories involve time travel and romantic situations with girls in my generation. The slash stories tend to be really explicit, with a good element of romance thrown in, and that really appeals to me. I don't at all see a link between my enjoyment of adult Beatles fiction, whether it be het or slash, and my fetish. The fact is, the wavs and stories in our community is what I use to enhance masturbation, whereas I don't use ANY of the stories to that end, even if I do find them titillating (the only thing that I find hot enough to spark orgasm is sneeze material).

So many people like slash that I've always looked at the enjoyment of it separately from my thinking about the fetish. It can't be that all those who like slash have a fetish like we do (as in something that provokes a physical sexual response, whether or not they want it to).

[brief_candle]

I really like what tma said about porn without a plot (like any porn has a plot ). I would love to find some f/f fetish fiction that doesn't seem like it was written by a teenage boy in the throes of puberty. I'm not referring to any story in particular, so I hope no one takes offense! I just mean that I haven't read any recent f/f stuff that grabs me. Like I said, I'm the weirdo who doesn't want the characters to screw. However, I think I could enjoy a very well written f/f story more than a good m/m, with or without sex. I can't relate much with male characters, so it's difficult to put myself in the story and experience it vicariously.

Agreed! I love f/f fics. They are my first preference, but since it is rare that I find a f/f fic that A. Fits my fandom choices (I'm very picky) and B. is well written, I turn to reading m/m fics instead.

I don't necessarily get off on the m/m sex either. In stories, if it is well written, I can enjoy it. I've written some myself and I've found that I've enjoyed it, but not from an arousal standpoint. It's more of an enjoyment of exploring a form of sex from I'll never really be able to experience. It's also a refreshing literary challenge.

I do, however, get turned on by males being tender with each other, the snuggling, the kissing, even some well-written foreplay. And if there's sneezing involved, I'm gone. Like tma mentioned, the h/c really comes into play for me. I love angst, and I guess since, stereotypically, men are thought of as hard and unemotional, I get kicks off of fics that subvert that concept. (I really love it when men cry in fics.)

As for het fics...I don't really like them. They usually do nothing for me.