Why the harsh?

[greycat19]

Let me prefix this post with my acknowledgement that it is never good to put yourself in a situation in which you are potentially harming someone.

Now that that's been said:

I don't understand why on this forum, which is a place to openly be yourself, at least in one respect, it is so taboo to talk about wanting to make someone sneeze. I'm sure the thought has crossed all of our minds at least once. I don't think it's very nice to verbally berate someone who is new to all of this for expressing their desire. I think the problem isn't so much making someone sneeze, as it is not being careful enough about it. Example: if you know a person is asthmatic, then obviously don't. If you don't know whether someone is or not, casually bring up asthma in conversation (relatively easy to do, as asthma rates are rising in the country, you could just start with "it's the weirdest thing, asthma is increasing so much these days. I wonder what's causing it? I know a few people with asthma...) and if not, then go for it. It is relatively unlikely for someone to go into shock over a strong perfume or something, and if they are that allergic, wouldn't they carry around an eppy pen just in case they ever went into public ever? People in general do tend to wear perfume and such. It obviously is stupid to do like that guy and blatantly assault someone with pepper or some other thing like that.

But, if you're discreet, and you take precautionary measures the rate of likelihood that anything will go wrong goes down drastically. Therefore, persons expressing a wish to do so, i think, ought not to be treated as though they were conspiring to commit a felony. Sure, if you're still against it, you can express that, nicely, but I don't think it's nice to stifle someone's ideas or hopes in such a blunt manner.

Does anyone agree with me?

Also please note, this is not a rant and I'm not using one of those angry tones (at least I wouldn't be if I were saying this out loud).

[Nicole]

You know, I do see what you're saying. And I have never particularly gotten enraged over someone having the desire to make another person sneeze...and I'm going to assume we're talking about doing it without that person's consent. Otherwise we probably wouldn't have this thread.

So yes, I've never gotten my panties in a ruffle about it. But in a way, I can see how it's a violation of that person. It's still a sexual thing for us, and I suppose if maybe you wear a strong perfume out in public with the hopes of making someone sneeze, you're not exactly hurting anyone...but the whole principle behind it is weird for me. Just because a man is turned on by women taking baths doesn't mean he can go all voyeuristic on her. That's not really "hurting" her either, but it's very violating. (And voyeurism is not actually not against the law in many states, as long as you're not taking video...which is just a weird thing I thought I'd add.) And of course, everyone here has a different threshold for what offends them, and rightly so - we're all unique.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I see your side. But since I'm in the middle, I also try to see the side of those who get very upset about it.

I didn't help at all, did I?! Talked in circles, is all I did.

[Mirf]

Of course the thought of making people sneezing crossed my mind before. It still does and i never would put it as a taboo to talk about thinking of it. But there is a difference between thinking about it and actually planning to do it or even actually doing it. I mean i've thought about strangling people too when i was seriously pissed at them but i never would think of actually doing it. There's a huge difference.

However i think there is another aspect to it than just the potential harm. First uncomfortness. While not potentially harmful look at let's say bondage. Would you like to be randomly tied up by someone else? Or let's say one of the feces fetishes. Would mind randomly getting laxative mixed in your drink? It wouldn't harm or endanger the person in question but i'm pretty sure it wouldn't be very comfortable. With sneezing while a little more harmless for most people it's the same. You see a lot of people who are uncomfortable with sneezing and "sneeze shy" when you look around in here and you never know if the person in question wouldn't be as well.

And even more important. Simple respect. I mean seriously forcing (yes that totally applies here) someone to do something without their knowledge probably even against their will. Not cool. And not something i would want to be associated with. You can fantasize and dream about it all day. People have all kind of forbidden and dirty fantasies and that's fine as long as it stays a fantasy. But as soon as you start about that you really plan to and/or do it you've lost in my book. Of course if you ask the person in question beforehand and they're ok with it by all means go nuts but if you didn't then seriously i don't care about how many precautions and similar things you take into consideration. It's still just wrong.

It may sound a little harsh but that's what i think.

[zneeze]

Though I still would never really make someone sneeze (for fear of being caught ), I completely agree with your point. It's utterly harmless to fantasize, and as a community, I know we love to fantasize Yet whenever someone even brushes with the topic of making someone sneeze, just purely from a fantasy standpoint, not real life, the mods put them down completely. Not the greatest way to encourage new posters.

And every time a forum noob is obviously serious when asking "How can I discretely make my BF/GF/crush sneeze?", let's not completely scream at them, either. People who are either new to the fetish and/or new to the forum don't yet realize any potential harm. It's just being nice, that's all.

[Heathcliff]

Discussion of invasive methods to make someone sneeze can make the fetish look creepy and perverted- so it has become a very touchy subject. New members might mention it innocently, without realising it's a controversial topic, and be surprised by the reaction... unfortunately I think this has to be part of learning about the forum and the community. The moderators are only trying to protect the forum from bad publicity.

No-one could really blame you for putting on too much aftershave, or buying a cat, in the hope of making people sneeze- because those actions are completely normal, and they're unlikely to work on a specific person anyway.

But if you deliberately spray aftershave onto someone, or bring your cat uninvited to an allergic person's house... these are targeted, underhand methods, with the potential (however small) to cause harm.

You say: "...it is never good to put yourself in a situation in which you are potentially harming someone", and that's exactly the point.

P.S. I'm not saying the subject should be banned completely. I remember a story about a piano tutor and a woman coming for a musical audition; he knew she had hayfever, and deliberately put flowers on the piano to make her sneeze. I believe that this is fine in a story- as long as we emphasise that it is fiction, it's a fantasy, and not something appropriate in real life.

[chui]

Of course the thought of making people sneezing crossed my mind before. It still does and i never would put it as a taboo to talk about thinking of it. But there is a difference between thinking about it and actually planning to do it or even actually doing it. I mean i've thought about strangling people too when i was seriously pissed at them but i never would think of actually doing it. There's a huge difference.

Totally agree Mirf. There's nothing wrong with fantasizing about something. greycat19, what if a person takes all those precautions, and the person they make sneeze STILL has an extreme reaction and goes into anaphylactic shock? What then? Is it "ok" to push a person's body to the point where they have to rely on a Epi Pen? What if the Epi Pen doesn't work? The point is, something that is a wonderful FANTASY for us, could inadvertently be DEADLY for someone else. I find anything that invades another person in a sexual fashion, without their consent, to be inappropriate.

Though I still would never really make someone sneeze (for fear of being caught ), I completely agree with your point. It's utterly harmless to fantasize, and as a community, I know we love to fantasize Yet whenever someone even brushes with the topic of making someone sneeze, just purely from a fantasy standpoint, not real life, the mods put them down completely. Not the greatest way to encourage new posters.

And every time a forum noob is obviously serious when asking "How can I discretely make my BF/GF/crush sneeze?", let's not completely scream at them, either. People who are either new to the fetish and/or new to the forum don't yet realize any potential harm. It's just being nice, that's all.

Since I've been here, the Staff have never once "put someone down" or "screamed at them" for talking about this subject. But there are a few legal issues which are being addressed. Just in case something happens, the Staff go out of their way to make it known that this Forum does not advocate the violation of unsuspecting people, especially in situations that can have serious health complications. You may not like the fact that the Staff point this out, but it is done as politely as possible. And, honestly, if these new members read ANY of the older threads they would know the way the Forum addresses this issue.

[High on Lullabies]

Chui's right, there is nothing wrong with mentioning this subject, and we don't 'put people down' for daring to mention it. However it is important to draw the distinction very clearly between thinking/fantasising about making someone sneeze without their consent and/or knowledge, which I'd expect we've all done at some point (myself included) and the actual act of doing so.

This is because of the consequences it could have for the person's health which several people have alluded to. And greycat, I don't consider your point that someone with asthma or some other respiratory condition or indeed a serious allergy could/should be carrying the appropriate medicine to counteract an attack, makes it in any way okay or not unpleasant for the other person.

Additionally, as we've seen with the gentleman from Texas, depending on your methodology it could well be considered assault and hence illegal (and the promotion or proliferation of anything illegal under UK, US or Canadian law is not permitted here).

For these reasons surely it is wise for the Staff to make it absolutely clear they do not condone this sort of activity and indeed to advise members of the potential risks of engaging in something like this both to their intended target and themselves.

I'm sorry if you felt yourself or others were being harshly treated over what has been posted on this subject, this was not our intention. However we are not prepared to compromise in any situation where there is even the slightest chance of legal repercussions, and feel both because of the potential risks highlighted above this issue should be treated with the utmost seriousness.

[count tiszula]

Very clearly explained, HoL, and we are all grateful to the staff for protecting us from these horrors, which are so out of our own experience.

I think that new members here can sometimes be perplexed, I know I was, by the apparent negative attitude of many posters to the activity which has caused us all to congregate here. A newcomer might almost think that people here feel guilty about an essentiallly harmless interest, or rather, that they wish to fortify an irrational feeling of guilt and spread it to others.

Most ordinary people are so unconcerned about sneezing that they are not even aware that they do it; even those few who express a dislike for it still continue to do it. We all know that all sorts of different and unpredictable things cause people to sneeze. If we were really determined not to "make" people sneeze it would barely be possible ever to associate with them; one would have to forgo a trip to a pub or restaurant in case they drank alcohol or ate too much or used pepper or spicy foods or wasabi; you would have to forbid them to visit the lavatory in case they inhaled the delicate aroma of air freshener or disinfectant; one's home would have to become a hypoallergenic bubble from which all pets, all perfumes and aftershaves, all air fresheners, all pepper and spices, all dust, all flowers, all windows opening on to gardens, all bright lights, especially sunlight, were excluded. You could never wash anything in soap or soap powder. In fact, you would have to live in an air-conditioned twilight, so that everyone could get Legionnaires' disease or bitten by vampires.

I myself have stopped visiting the beaches of the Mediterranean in case I should inadvertently catch sight of a too scantily clad person whose appearance I might find sexually attractive.

[doggo]

Well, as long as you're not doing something that targets one person specifically (like stupid stunts like blowing pepper to someone's face or sticking your finger under their nose in a movie theater), you're not on the freak radar IMHO.

As long as the things you do could be done by anyone (like wearing perfume or giving your cat an extra cuddle), you're cool in my opinion and anyone trying to tell you otherwise is being hysterical.

And I'm afraid that people have all sorts of questionable intents all the time anyway. So if what you're doing is otherwise fairly normal, but your intention is to add to the chances to someone sneezing... well, isn't that naughty. But we humans tend to be. Not only fetishists, and fetishists too in more than one way.

[Mirf]

You know count i am a little hmmm.. let's call it "irritated" by your post. I know i'm probably a little stuck up and too tight on this subject and i don't want to tell anyone what they have to think, but i don't particularly like your pretty sarcastic approach of the subject and feel like it's almost dragged into being something ridiculous.

That being said the rest of my post isn't directed directly towards you or anyone else.

I want to try to express a little more why whenever the subject of intentionally planning to make other people comes up i personally am a little "serious". To me the fetish is something i would call quite a lot sexual. I get a lot out of it and while i know not everyone does i think we all can agree that it is something we all connect to a form of sexual pleasure in some way.

Now if i were to go a little into the extreme, i would say intentionally planning and making someone sneeze without their knowledge and or approval is a mild form of rape. Surely i wouldn't really use the term and i'm sure a lot of people will go "wtf" with this. But if you think about it i think you can see how you if you made someone sneeze actually would put them into a situation that has a sexual effect on yourself without their consent. If you look at it this way i think it becomes kind of dangerously similar. Putting all the albeit very small chances of actual health danger and the maybe to the person caused uncomfortableness aside, it isn't something i would do to someone. And something that i wouldn't want to be done by anyone to me. I certainly wouldn't do it to a friend and i wouldn't do it to people i don't even like. If i knew someone put me into a situation or made me do something against my will just for the sake that they get sexual pleasure out of it no matter what it was i would be pretty hurt. So stuff like this is at least for me a no go.

I'm not talking about normally wearing perfume or owning a cat here. I'm not saying one should wimp in a corner in guilt whenever they hear someone sneeze. I'm talking about seriously planning of a way to make someone sneeze and doing it without their knowledge or even against their will. To me it seems absolutely normal to be against something like this by nature. I dunno, just out of respect to other people. Maybe i'm too closed minded with it or something, but that's what i think.

[greycat19]

Though I still would never really make someone sneeze (for fear of being caught ), I completely agree with your point. It's utterly harmless to fantasize, and as a community, I know we love to fantasize Yet whenever someone even brushes with the topic of making someone sneeze, just purely from a fantasy standpoint, not real life, the mods put them down completely. Not the greatest way to encourage new posters.

And every time a forum noob is obviously serious when asking "How can I discretely make my BF/GF/crush sneeze?", let's not completely scream at them, either. People who are either new to the fetish and/or new to the forum don't yet realize any potential harm. It's just being nice, that's all.

This is exactly what I meant.

[Vetinari]

You know all the staff are different and we all respond in different ways. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we get it wrong. None of is is perfect and I am sure there are things we have all done that we regret afterwards or wish we could change.

That said, one thing I do know that changed when I became a member of staff was my awareness of the possibility of things that might backfire or go wrong. If something unfortunate does happen, I want to feel that, as a staff member I have done my utmost to keep those on here safe, and in particular those who might be more vulnerable or impressionable. I think that gives me a different view of what goes on here than say another member who might consider for example that the banning of under 18 videos is draconian because it doesn't fit comfortably with the laws where they live.

So if a member, in any way implies that they think it might be acceptable to try actively to make someone sneeze then perhaps I would now be far less likely to compromise that position where, as HoL mentioned there might be the slightest chance of legal repercussions. There are those who may choose to pursue paths that they feel are likely to maximise the chances of others sneezing (e.g, the wearing of strong perfume) and it may well be that those people are responsible and would use that sensibly. However sometimes small steps can lead others to believe that such behaviour is the norm and that taking slightly bigger steps might also be acceptable. Sometimes it is better to draw that line where there is no possibility of misunderstanding.

[greycat19]

Hm. When put like that, it is much more understandable. Thank you.

[doggo]

You have a very good point, Vetinari. But I do think the rhetoric around this topic gets often quite over-dramatic. You talk about what you scrub your toilet with, and suddenly you get accused of being akin to rapists and drunken drivers and killing people's mothers.

[greycat19]

You have a very good point, Vetinari. But I do think the rhetoric around this topic gets often quite over-dramatic. You talk about what you scrub your toilet with, and suddenly you get accused of being akin to rapists and drunken drivers and killing people's mothers.

Hm? toilet scrubbies? I think I missed that...

However, also a very good point.

[Vetinari]

You have a very good point, Vetinari. But I do think the rhetoric around this topic gets often quite over-dramatic. You talk about what you scrub your toilet with, and suddenly you get accused of being akin to rapists and drunken drivers and killing people's mothers.

I know that I would like relations between all the staff and all the members to always be as harmonious as possible.If you feel there are things we could do that would improve relations between the staff and the members then I am sure we would love to hear them. It may be of course that for practical reasons they cannot be implemented and on occasion we may not be able to explain every decision publicly but if there are changes people would like to see and they have constructive suggestions about how people would like to see the forum run then I can assure you they will be discussed.

[doggo]

Thanks, Vet! I don't think the problem discussed here is between staff and other members. I think it's about public lyching mentality, assuming the worst and blowing things out of proportion. And if the topic starter is a newbie, they might indeed feel quite uncomfortable unknowingly starting a topic that's bound to become a warzone, and the topic starter getting not much short of being called a rapist and a killer. Outside the pit.

If there was some relieable way to bridle the blood lust, we might save ourselves a lot of hurt feelings.

I'll think about this.

[Vetinari]

Yet whenever someone even brushes with the topic of making someone sneeze, just purely from a fantasy standpoint, not real life, the mods put them down completely. Not the greatest way to encourage new posters.

Sorry Shiny, it was Zneeze that mentioned staff and you are correct no-one else did so.

See I'm tired and feeling not that great and thus what I had to say contained some incorrect assumptions.

*is all too human as always*

Edit because clearly sentence construction should be on the list of things of which I am currently incapable.

[zneeze]

Just exaggerating to make a point

[Lynne]

Just exaggerating to make a point

Yes, thanks for that.

[snuffles]

Just throwing a thought out here, if it's a legality issue then shouldn't it be mentioned in the rules/ constitution/ guidelines somewhere? Sorry if I missed it (the severity of this topic never really crossed my mind before), but I think it might ease up a lot of misunderstanding for new users if you can just calmly refer someone to the ToS.

I do understand the strong feelings against this topic, but as any topic about ethics there's generally a blurred line where people consider acceptable. However, if it's implemented strictly as forum law regarding legal issues, then the mods and staff won't get such a backlash at enforcing what they deem best.

That said, I do appreciate everyone's input here. I have asthma myself, but it's generally so mild I never bother carrying an inhaler with me. It's never occurred to me (even though I've had asthma all my life) that I might potentially die, so I can totally understand that not all people recognize the severity of the issue. But personally I would not automatically equate it with rape or murder.

I do agree that "intentionally causing someone potential harm without their consent" is not good. But there are many levels of things that are not good and just as many things that can cause someone potential harm. For example... how many people here have ever talked on a cell phone while driving? (I have. Yes, I'm evil... I know. Though I'm forcing myself not to do it anymore.) But I think understanding the risks and harms of something is the first step to understanding why it's not good. Without understanding the risks first, if someone were to say to me that I'm just as bad as a murder I'd probably turn a deaf ear to them and brush them off as crazy paranoia. This is not even including the topic about rape or sexual pleasures, which I think is completely separate issue.

Since I know my post makes no sense, in summary I just wanted to say that categorizing and labeling people is not really a good thing. This topic has a lot of strong feelings associated with it, but if a formal line is drawn out for the forum as a whole then it might ease up the misunderstandings.

[doggo]

Snuffles, well said, I agree with just about everything.

The same thing about ToS crossed my mind. There could be an official forum line regarding "creepy behaviours" that are not endorsed by the staff. Should it be a sticky post or where, I don't know. But yes, something to calmly refer people to when topics like this are raised for discussion.

[Vetinari]

However, if it's implemented strictly as forum law regarding legal issues, then the mods and staff won't get such a backlash at enforcing what they deem best.

It is difficult on occasion to ensure that all legal issues are covered, mainly because the law is not static and in particular, where "Common Law" is concerned it can be very difficult to cover all eventualities. If it were perceived that harm had been done to an individual (an obvious example would be the pepper blower) and the perpetrator pointed to the forum and could demonstrate that such behaviour was being encouraged here in any form then it may be that those who run the forum might be considered liable alongside the perpetrator. I appreciate that particular example might be unlikely, however it may help to explain what i was trying to imply about why the staff feel they may have to be seen to be erring on the side of caution in these matters.

It may be that a more senior member of staff might like to contribute here but this is my personal opinion.

I cannot see that it would be possible to create a clear rule on what is and what is not acceptable here. As HoL has stated,

there is nothing wrong with mentioning this subject, and we don't 'put people down' for daring to mention it.

I personally would have no desire to introduce a rule stating that the subject cannot be raised for example. I think it is useful that the question can be asked and that replies can be made. The majority of the staff, in general would probably take the stance that such behaviour is not acceptable on any level and should be free to express that opinion, hopefully in a polite and constructive way.

Equally I think it is important that other members can have their say. It appears to me that the problem arises more when people respond in a way that is inappropriate to members who raise this kind of topic. On occasions some posters views are expressed in such a way that they are flaming and/or unecessarily harsh or derogatory and that is already against the forum rules outside the snake pit. Those members I consider should be dealt with accordingly and if members feel that at the moment that is not occurring then perhaps that is something that the staff must review and thereafter monitor.

Edited because Shiny posted almost simultaneously:

There could be an official forum line regarding "creepy behaviours" that are not endorsed by the staff. Should it be a sticky post or where, I don't know. But yes, something to calmly refer people to when topics like this are raised for discussion.

I personally quite like this idea. The practicalities of the suggestion will be discussed.

[Prodigy]

My two cents, if I'm understanding greycat's original post correctly:

It's fine to talk about it. It's fine to wish about it, consider it, fantasize, dream, want for it to happen. This is why there are very few regulations surrounding stories and art (which are implied to be fictional, unless stated otherwise by the author). The problem that would arise would be if one were to post an obs (which is requested to be based off actual events) describing these nonconsensual methods, or an "idea thread" in General Discussion (for example) to generate "accepted" means to make others sneeze unwillingly.

This is why the idea seems "jumped upon" when raised in GD; it comes across as asking for methods to knowingly assault someone without their consent or knowledge, and (to me) that crosses a "common knowledge" line of creepiness. After all, there is a "How To Induce" thread at the top for ways to make yourself sneeze, and that would be relevant to use on others as well (with consent).

It is not often that the new user in question is trying to be creepy or break rules or stir the pot. However, allowing threads to go on mentioning methods like the ones listed above would imply that forum staff condone this behaviour, and we don't. We understand if you're new -- being new is exciting, thrilling, "kid-in-a-candy-store" type feeling! -- however, simply for the "public image" of the forum, I (personally) could not allow threads like that to swim around and garner attention that could paint us all in a bad light.

(90% human and 10% mod opinion)

[The Dude]

Definitely agree with the idea of a sticky, or of some clause in the Constitution stating what the SFF does and does not endorse. Just something to cover our hides, in case some nut like Pepperman decides to strike out again. Beyond that it just falls into the realm of common sense/courtesy, and I don't think we can be held accountable.