Religion?

[VoOs]

It does scare me when some people talk about how those who do not believe will either be cast out or sent to hell when they die.... That's what i was told by a teacher a long time ago (when i lived in Australia for a few years) & it frightened the life out of me & made me feel that i had to be a christian & convert my family or we'd all go to hell...

I'm really sorry that happened to you. That teacher... What an absolute idiot.

I've always said that if there was a god, and it was the sort of god that punishes people for all eternity if they don't obey its every will, then I wouldn't want to have anything to do with it anyway. A god like that would just be a self-righteous, sadistic monster.

(Extremely interesting comments in this thread. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, everyone!)

[tma]

I know that I'm posting in here *way* too often.

I just wanted to say that- James, I'm So sorry for your experience. I have many friends that have had similar types of experiences that consequently won't go near a church with a ten foot pole and are a bit bitter towards Christians (and I completely and utterly understand that). I personally didn't take any offense, it just makes me Really sad and frustrated that people do that to other people. I don't understand why.

It's so much nicer and much more productive to just have decent, nice, open-minded conversations about beliefs (and I feel like this thread exemplifies that).

[vote_for_pedro]

Personally speaking i haven't had very good experience with 'religion' & i'm sad to say it left me feeling pretty negative over the whole thing

Hey James, sounds like you and I have the same experience with Christianity. Mine was also really negative. I never felt anything that all the church people claimed to feel. I'd see them writhing around on the floor, speaking in tongues, crying, shaking their tambourines... I never felt a fucking thing. How was it that the holy spirit was in the room possessing everyone but me?

I was threatened with the Lake of Fire regularly as well. I didn't identify as atheist back then, but it was certainly obvious to the rest of the town that my family didn't attend any of the hundreds of churches. There were other sinful behaviors too, like mowing the lawn on Sunday or drinking a beer. We were always under attack. You get really tired when you feel like you have to defend every move you make.

[Heavy-Chevy]

Personally speaking i haven't had very good experience with 'religion' & i'm sad to say it left me feeling pretty negative over the whole thing

Hey James, sounds like you and I have the same experience with Christianity. Mine was also really negative. I never felt anything that all the church people claimed to feel. I'd see them writhing around on the floor, speaking in tongues, crying, shaking their tambourines... I never felt a fucking thing. How was it that the holy spirit was in the room possessing everyone but me?

I was threatened with the Lake of Fire regularly as well. I didn't identify as atheist back then, but it was certainly obvious to the rest of the town that my family didn't attend any of the hundreds of churches. There were other sinful behaviors too, like mowing the lawn on Sunday or drinking a beer. We were always under attack. You get really tired when you feel like you have to defend every move you make.

While I wasn't attacked nearly as much as you and James were, I do still occasionally have my uncomfortable run-ins with religion in my family. My mom & aunt aren't super crazy religious but they do believe that the world will end in December. Every now and then, they tell me I need to "get right with God" or I'll be left behind and be in for unimaginable suffering. It usually ends with my mother having an emotional seizure over the fact that I ever stopped going to church. It's such an unpleasant experience when it happens.

Luckily, it doesn't happen often but I still try to avoid it where ever possible. If my mom is watching one of those ancient prophecy specials on TV, I'll leave the room immediately because that's how those discussions usually start. My sister believes it to but so far she hasn't bothered me much. My dad was raised Jewish but he hasn't actively practiced it since he was in his late teens. I'm not sure what his religious position is now, but my mom is trying to slowly get him over to her side. I hope he doesn't give in to all that fear driven propaganda.

[Healer]

@TheMorpher: could you tell us what your exact definition of empirical evidence is? (Not threadjacking, I think - I want to go somewhere with this that's definitely related to the subject matter in hand.)

Sensory data. My view, though, is that if the physical date correlates with someone's argument, and supports it, I'll believe the argument (for example, fossils and evolution) But if I don't have any sensory date to correlate with an argument, I won't believe it.

If there is sensory data that could be used in two contradicting arguments, I tend to go for the arguments that more of the facts work in it's favour, or other forms of sensory data that can be used to argue it.

I'm not sure if I've phrased what I've meant very well, but that looks good to me right now I'm very interested to see where you're going with this, now

[March Hare]

My point is: empiricists build their entire philosophy on the premise that 'sensory' equals 'objective'/'trustworthy'. But what if that premise is false? The facts, as you call them, are perceptions of the world that are implicitly trusted, but I wonder if that is justified. Can we trust our senses implicitly? Do you perceive what I perceive?

There really isn't a way to answer this question. Science, even exact, empirical science, is also basically a matter of conventions. We agree that certain things are true, but there is no truly objective way to check. On the most fundamental level, all is conjecture.

Which still means, of course, that carefully researched and peer-reviewed and well-grounded conjecture is still better than pure, random conjecture; which is why the scientific ways of trying to find truth are better than mindlessly accepting outdated dogmas. But they're still sub-optimal. I don't know whether we should even aspire to the optimal, but at least, what I'm trying to say is: religious fundamentalists are stupid to knock science, but scientists are narrow-minded if they knock religion in general.

NOBODY KNOWS THE TRUTH. *dun dun dunnn*

[Smokey]

I know that I'm posting in here *way* too often.

I just wanted to say that- James, I'm So sorry for your experience. I have many friends that have had similar types of experiences that consequently won't go near a church with a ten foot pole and are a bit bitter towards Christians (and I completely and utterly understand that). I personally didn't take any offense, it just makes me Really sad and frustrated that people do that to other people. I don't understand why.

It's so much nicer and much more productive to just have decent, nice, open-minded conversations about beliefs (and I feel like this thread exemplifies that).

Thanks tma

Personally speaking i haven't had very good experience with 'religion' & i'm sad to say it left me feeling pretty negative over the whole thing

Hey James, sounds like you and I have the same experience with Christianity. Mine was also really negative. I never felt anything that all the church people claimed to feel. I'd see them writhing around on the floor, speaking in tongues, crying, shaking their tambourines... I never felt a fucking thing. How was it that the holy spirit was in the room possessing everyone but me?

I was threatened with the Lake of Fire regularly as well. I didn't identify as atheist back then, but it was certainly obvious to the rest of the town that my family didn't attend any of the hundreds of churches. There were other sinful behaviors too, like mowing the lawn on Sunday or drinking a beer. We were always under attack. You get really tired when you feel like you have to defend every move you make.

That is awful sounds like you had it much worse then i did- your family must have had a really tough time back then did you live in quite a small community? Do your parents or any relatives still live there now?... Sorry to be nosey.

What you about the whole 'speaking in tongues' some youth groups used to do that... I never witnessed it but my sisters did, it really put them off, especially when they saw people in tears afterwards- i remember going to a youth group once a long time ago where this guy up on stage during a song said that those that didn't come up on stage with him would be 'damned for eternity'... after that i knew religion just wasn't for me.

Personally speaking i haven't had very good experience with 'religion' & i'm sad to say it left me feeling pretty negative over the whole thing

Hey James, sounds like you and I have the same experience with Christianity. Mine was also really negative. I never felt anything that all the church people claimed to feel. I'd see them writhing around on the floor, speaking in tongues, crying, shaking their tambourines... I never felt a fucking thing. How was it that the holy spirit was in the room possessing everyone but me?

I was threatened with the Lake of Fire regularly as well. I didn't identify as atheist back then, but it was certainly obvious to the rest of the town that my family didn't attend any of the hundreds of churches. There were other sinful behaviors too, like mowing the lawn on Sunday or drinking a beer. We were always under attack. You get really tired when you feel like you have to defend every move you make.

While I wasn't attacked nearly as much as you and James were, I do still occasionally have my uncomfortable run-ins with religion in my family. My mom & aunt aren't super crazy religious but they do believe that the world will end in December. Every now and then, they tell me I need to "get right with God" or I'll be left behind and be in for unimaginable suffering. It usually ends with my mother having an emotional seizure over the fact that I ever stopped going to church. It's such an unpleasant experience when it happens.

Luckily, it doesn't happen often but I still try to avoid it where ever possible. If my mom is watching one of those ancient prophecy specials on TV, I'll leave the room immediately because that's how those discussions usually start. My sister believes it to but so far she hasn't bothered me much. My dad was raised Jewish but he hasn't actively practiced it since he was in his late teens. I'm not sure what his religious position is now, but my mom is trying to slowly get him over to her side. I hope he doesn't give in to all that fear driven propaganda.

Sorry to hear about your experiences as well Heavy-Chevy, i do hope that it doesn't become to much of an issue for your family

[count tiszula]

I wonder what numbers 2 to 4 indicate; I wasn't aware there were so many shades between atheists and agnostics.

I am fascinated by religious matters; but though I identify as a High Anglican, I don't really do anything about it.

I am very surprised by these experiences of atheists being persecuted by Christians rather than the reverse; it could scarcely happen in the UK. The other night I was watching Channel 4 News and they had a long news item beginning; "Does anyone care who the next Archbishop of Canterbury is?" Imagine if they ran something beginning ""Does anyone care who the next England manager is?" But then football shows all the signs of being a religion; just look at the holy martyrs of Hillsborough....

[vote_for_pedro]

There really isn't a way to answer this question. Science, even exact, empirical science, is also basically a matter of conventions. We agree that certain things are true, but there is no truly objective way to check. On the most fundamental level, all is conjecture.

I have to disagree with this, and that empirical evidence is just sensory data. We know that we can't fully trust our senses, which is why they aren't reliable enough to fully prove certain things. You can claim you felt a spirit pass through you in the hall, but that really means nothing. Observation is certainly a part of it, but without testing, measuring, repeating, etc it's just anecdotal evidence.

Also, there are most certainly things that we can prove through math and various algorithms. If the gravitational constant suddenly changes, it means the laws of our universe have changed as well. If you look as far back as Aristotle, logic contains a law called the law of identity. A is A. My point is that there has to be a jumping off point, or anything goes. If we're going to debate the laws of the universe, we might as well consider The Matrix to be based on something factual. It's beyond the scope of the definition of empirical evidence.

[SomethingClever]

I was raised Unitarian Universalist, which by nature isn't a very religious religion, with overtones of Islam, but mostly just culturally (my parents are from Lebanon). So I wouldn't call myself very religious. But it's a fairly significant part of my cultural identity, so I would go a little higher than agnostic. I like that you put it on a spectrum, there's such a huge variance from every person.

[count tiszula]

What vfp says is fascinating. So often in the final analysis we come down to a difference between two groups of authorities; I've never seen a subatomic particle whizzing around to secure the matter of my table, nor have I seen an angel [as far as I know], yet I have no problem believing in both, since numerous very reliable people have thought about both.

An example occurred only this evening on Qi . Stephen Fry stated that if you repeat the name of an object you are looking for , you will find it. His proof of this was simply to preface the sentence with "University of Wisconsin", Yet on the same programme some years ago he roundly denounced a guest who stated that a prayer to St Jude or St Anthony worked. Because of course anything to do with religion cannot be true.

You don't have to be a genius to suggest that both, or neither, is true. [ Of course, the direct intervention of God might work.....]

[March Hare]

Math is probably the only thing mankind has ever come up with that always represents truth.

The previous statement says a lot about its own probability.

I wonder why Stephen Fry said "University of Wisconsin", and not "Cambridge University"? (Or is it "University of Cambridge"? No matter how much of an Anglophile I am, I still don't know everything.)

[Squadilah]

All my grandparents were raised to be Christian but they are/were all atheist from a young age in reality. My parents are also both atheist and so am I. I never actually talked to them about religion when I was little and I only became atheist (instead of agnostic) because at school they taught us so much about other religions. I used to come home and ask my older brother the truth about the stories they told us and he would always denounce them as myths. Now I've read the Bible and the Qur'an and it's all the same to me.

[tma]

What vfp says is fascinating. So often in the final analysis we come down to a difference between two groups of authorities; I've never seen a subatomic particle whizzing around to secure the matter of my table, nor have I seen an angel [as far as I know], yet I have no problem believing in both, since numerous very reliable people have thought about both.

Agreed. There are a Lot of mathematical and scientific proofs that I have to take completely on faith. And I personally have thought about and questioned my faith regarding spirituality more than I have questioned my belief in scientific principles that I have not observed. Although I have very much doubted the existence of imaginary numbers- I think that they and calculus were just made up to make people who aren't good with advanced maths (like myself) feel inadequate.

[vote_for_pedro]

I've never seen a subatomic particle whizzing around to secure the matter of my table, nor have I seen an angel

But if you wanted to see a subatomic particle, an electron microscope would show it to you every single time without fail. There isn't anything that will consistently reveal the presence of an angel. This is why they call it proof. Faith is just belief without any proof.

[Smokey]

All my grandparents were raised to be Christian but they are/were all atheist from a young age in reality. My parents are also both atheist and so am I. I never actually talked to them about religion when I was little and I only became atheist (instead of agnostic) because at school they taught us so much about other religions. I used to come home and ask my older brother the truth about the stories they told us and he would always denounce them as myths. Now I've read the Bible and the Qur'an and it's all the same to me.

Your experience sounds quite similar to mine, i was quite agnostic for a while, asked questions to people & after looking into it i decided i was after all an atheist.

Similarly my parents ( especially my Mum) where raised as Christians- but there are now atheist, this was one of the things that frightened me most when i was told at school how people who rejected the faith where cast out into eternity.... Terrifying thought.

By the way welcome to the forums

[Squadilah]

All my grandparents were raised to be Christian but they are/were all atheist from a young age in reality. My parents are also both atheist and so am I. I never actually talked to them about religion when I was little and I only became atheist (instead of agnostic) because at school they taught us so much about other religions. I used to come home and ask my older brother the truth about the stories they told us and he would always denounce them as myths. Now I've read the Bible and the Qur'an and it's all the same to me.

Your experience sounds quite similar to mine, i was quite agnostic for a while, asked questions to people & after looking into it i decided i was after all an atheist.

Similarly my parents ( especially my Mum) where raised as Christians- but there are now atheist, this was one of the things that frightened me most when i was told at school how people who rejected the faith where cast out into eternity.... Terrifying thought.

By the way welcome to the forums

It's funny how this story is happening to so many people in the UK. Like I mentioned, all my grandparents are/were atheist, the youngest of which was born in 1945. In the USA it isn't like that. There is only one member of congress who openly doesn't believe in god and only about 15% of Americans don't believe in god. Maybe in a few decades that will rise to 50% like in the UK.

[March Hare]

only about 15% of Americans don't believe in god.

How do you know?

[Squadilah]

only about 15% of Americans don't believe in god.

How do you know?

There are a lot of different polls for this sort of thing and usually they find that it's about 15% who don't believe in god. The 2008 American Religious Identification Survey found that 15.2% of US adults didn't identify as being part of a religion.

[Smokey]

All my grandparents were raised to be Christian but they are/were all atheist from a young age in reality. My parents are also both atheist and so am I. I never actually talked to them about religion when I was little and I only became atheist (instead of agnostic) because at school they taught us so much about other religions. I used to come home and ask my older brother the truth about the stories they told us and he would always denounce them as myths. Now I've read the Bible and the Qur'an and it's all the same to me.

Your experience sounds quite similar to mine, i was quite agnostic for a while, asked questions to people & after looking into it i decided i was after all an atheist.

Similarly my parents ( especially my Mum) where raised as Christians- but there are now atheist, this was one of the things that frightened me most when i was told at school how people who rejected the faith where cast out into eternity.... Terrifying thought.

By the way welcome to the forums

It's funny how this story is happening to so many people in the UK. Like I mentioned, all my grandparents are/were atheist, the youngest of which was born in 1945. In the USA it isn't like that. There is only one member of congress who openly doesn't believe in god and only about 15% of Americans don't believe in god. Maybe in a few decades that will rise to 50% like in the UK.

That is a very good point, it does certainly seem that ( watching the presidential campaign etc) that religion is quiet a big part of life in the USA & talked about quite a lot in things like political campaigns, whereas here in the UK it seems to have slipped back a lot & there was a poll taken not quite so long ago ( & can't remember who it was) where it said something like less then one in seven of us attend church on a regular basis compared to like 40/60 years ago.

[count tiszula]

I've never seen a subatomic particle whizzing around to secure the matter of my table, nor have I seen an angel

But if you wanted to see a subatomic particle, an electron microscope would show it to you every single time without fail. There isn't anything that will consistently reveal the presence of an angel. This is why they call it proof. Faith is just belief without any proof.

But I can't see a neutrino or dark matter. And if I wanted to I could read the Blessed John Henry Newman's Apologia or St Anselm's Proslogion and they would tell me a great deal about faith AND reason every time without fail. And like many people I don't really believe in any of them. Newman is helpful about doubt....

[shy guy]

Religion is perhaps the biggest source of conflict and confusion in my life, which is really saying something because conflict and confusion is what my life is about. I voted "7" in the poll: I do believe in God, but I don't live my life in the manner that a believer should. I was raised Catholic, fell away and became alienated from that faith after my divorce, and have bounced around various Christian denominations since then. I really want and need religion, but lately I just feel so numb to it that I can't really get involved. The only things I'm sure of is that there is a God, and I'll end up on the wrong side of the tracks when my life is said and done.

[March Hare]

Well that's bleak, isn't it? Maybe the Christians have it all the way wrong, you know. Maybe God really is Morgan Freeman. Or a DJ. Or Zeus!

The thing is that nobody can force you to believe in any kind of God except you yourself. You actually do have a choice here, believe it or not. It probably takes guts and effort to go along with that, depending on how deeply you used to be involved in Catholic religion (or any religion) - but there is no saying for certain whether any of us is right. Which gives you the freedom to shape your own image of God. And this being so, I would strongly advise you to shape yourself an image of God that gives you comfort and maybe even joy.

Truth is limited to itself, but the possibilities of believing are infinite.

[Smokey]

Wow Shy guy that's quite sad, it's a shame you felt alienated from your faith after your divorce.

Could that have more to do with the people at the church you attended? Maybe you just need to find the right place

As i said i'm really not sure if i believe in god, but if there is a god i'm pretty certain he wouldn't want anyone alienated or ending up on the wrong tracks at the end

[doggo]

Straight. Up. ATHEIST.

Regarding the mysteries of the universe, I acknowledge that there are many things that can't be explained. But with those things, I take an agnostic approach. I'd rather say "I don't know." Making massive leaps in logic (god/spirits/guiding forces with a plan) to explain the unknown is intellectually dishonest, in my opinion. Not to mention extremely limiting. When there could be billions of possibilities, some more logical than others, I'd rather keep an open mind and continue to search for conclusive truth.

Pretty much exactly what I think too.

I guess in strict sense I might be considered agnostic. But I like the sound of "atheist". And that's what I practically am. I am not afraid of loose ends - actually, I love them. I tend to view religion as a "working hypothesis", and I just don't want one. I want to wallow in my ignorance and lack of definitive truth about human existence.

Because to me, that feeling of being absolutely and totally in the dark is the most central, most meaningful human experience.