Nonbinary Genders + PSA: The pronoun field of your forum profile is not for decoration

[bloom]

I understand. I didn't mean to imply that You Yourself were dictating, I was trying to speak more broadly, but I don't think my post made that really clear. I think the dialogue between us was respectful, which I really appreciate, so thank you for that.

Although I do have to mention - all that a right to free speech means is that the government can't come after you for what you've said; it doesn't mean that you can speak freely without consequences from other sources (there aren't any in this case except other people possibly thinking you're either an idiot or an asshole). But I see what you're getting at.

[sneasons greetings]

I'd like to point out that the public boards are absolutely not a place where anybody is entitled to freedom of speech. All inflammatory remarks and comments are relegated to the snake pit where they belong. Whether this is right or not could be debated, but those are the rules.

Making a joke about pronouns is an aggressive act in the same way that coming right out and saying that nonbinary genders are a joke is. Multiple people have expressed that this is offensive to them. I'm not saying that every person doing this is doing it on purpose or being intentionally malicious, but regardless of the intent, it is still proving to be a harmful act. The rules against outward flaming (anywhere other than the snake pit) are there to protect all users, whether anybody feels they deserve the criticism or not. If anybody wants to insult alternative pronouns, they can exercise their freedom of speech in the snake pit, but shouldn't be doing it publicly.

Edit: Watercolor Daydreams this is not directed specifically at you. I understand your position and I am not attempting to target you personally. I just want to explain this to anybody else who thinks that freedom of speech plays a part in this discussion as a suitable excuse for the actions themselves or others. 

[Sitruuna]

It just came to mind that maybe not all cis people/people with no prior experience with trans and (especially) nonbinary people even realise what the pronoun field is there for.

[SpamKey]

Speaking as a firmly cis person, I agree with Junia; it's really not our place to say what is and is not, much less should be or should not be, offensive to the trans/nonbinary community. Just like I, as a white person, cannot dictate what is/should be offensive to a black person. Also, just like a man cannot dictate what is/should be offensive to a woman. Our life experiences are simply too different; it's at best in poor taste, and at worst bigoted, depending on both intention and reception. Yes; how we are perceived does matter. Whether or not you meant to hurt someone only really matters in the apology, and only a little at that. What really matters is what really happened, and if someone was really hurt, an apology is in order. Not directed at anyone in particular; just a general statement of opinion.

I also agree that abuse of the pronoun section is in very poor taste and detrimental to the cause, and should be chastised and discouraged, at the very least. It is, of course, up to the staff to decide whether or not it should be disallowed; but they'd have my support in that decision, not that it matters.

[Garnet]

2 hours ago, Sitruuna said:

It just came to mind that maybe not all cis people/people with no prior experience with trans and (especially) nonbinary people even realise what the pronoun field is there for.

I think... that was the purpose behind the original post? Junia explains why it's there, what it's used for, etc. under the assumption that maybe many people didn't know any better (and of course I'm sure that some did). But now they can't claim ignorance.

(For the record, and anyone not in the know, my pronouns are a joke, but intended to poke fun at the people poking fun or misusing the field with jokes and nonsense. Specifically, "sneezygirl" was a real thing that happened I know that most of the trans/NB people speaking up in this thread are cool with/amused by it, but I will probably change them regardless because it's still kind of an in-joke that may come across as off-color to someone unaware).

[Sitruuna]

5 hours ago, Garnet said:

I think... that was the purpose behind the original post? Junia explains why it's there, what it's used for, etc. under the assumption that maybe many people didn't know any better (and of course I'm sure that some did). But now they can't claim ignorance.

(For the record, and anyone not in the know, my pronouns are a joke, but intended to poke fun at the people poking fun or misusing the field with jokes and nonsense. Specifically, "sneezygirl" was a real thing that happened I know that most of the trans/NB people speaking up in this thread are cool with/amused by it, but I will probably change them regardless because it's still kind of an in-joke that may come across as off-color to someone unaware).

True. But to me at least it seems that most people here (myself included) asume everyone here knows that nonbinary genders are "a thing", that they excist. Idk I guess I just keep forgetting that there are people who have never had any reason to even consider it as a possibillity?

[rodakemopetojoen]

I just really wanna show my support for this post. Like others have said, it's really annoying to see people taking the piss by putting stupid things as their pronouns. It doesn't take much to see that this is a serious issue, and I think people would do well to respect it, or at least "live and let live" as it were. Though really it doesn't take a lot of effort to just take notice of and proceed to use someone's correct pronouns. A place online where those who use alternative pronouns display them to make it easier for others is even simpler than out there in the real world where sometimes people have to say "hey, what are your pronouns?". The perfect excuse to make sure you get someone's pronouns spot on. It's really easy, people.

[Dusty15]

Hi everyone! On behalf of the Forum staff, I wanted to let you all know that we've been chatting about this issue and as a staff, we absolutely does not condone "joking" pronoun fields. If there is a member that you feel is abusing this optional profile field, we encourage you to report it to staff via the CONTACT US! link or by sending a PM to a staff member. While we try to be vigilant, the Staff do not catch everything happening here and the 'pronoun' field isn't immediately visible to staff accessing the Forum on a mobile device. We will try to keep a better eye out when it comes to this issue. 

Thank you to Junia and other members for bringing this to our attention. It's worth noting here that if you have a problem with a certain Forum feature or something that's happening on the boards, we ask that you contact us via a PM or the CONTACT US! link. We really do want to take the time to discuss any suggestions by members and to address any problems that might be occurring, but if they aren't shared with us in an effective way, they can be missed. So even if you mention something to a staff member in chat or off-forum, it's best to 'make it official' and send a message on the Forum. It helps us to remember what we need to be chatting about as a group and allows all of us to weigh in a team!

[Big Bear]

I didn't mean to misuse mine before.  All of this is very new for old dinosaurs like me, especially when we've been playing hermit for almost a decade. 

But I'm slowly catching on and catching up. 

[March Hare]

The Dutch language actually has a genderneutral version of himself/herself: zichzelf. (And henzelf for "themselves", though of course "themselves" itself is also genderneutral.)

On the other hand, the pronouns used for inanimate objects ARE gendered ("I have a ball, he is red" or "The committee has presented her report to the president").

Languages are weird. Which is why change is good, everyone. It may not be easy, it certainly can be awkward, but it's good and we need to perpetuate it. 

[Sitruuna]

14 hours ago, March Hare said:

The Dutch language actually has a genderneutral version of himself/herself: zichzelf. (And henzelf for "themselves", though of course "themselves" itself is also genderneutral.)

On the other hand, the pronouns used for inanimate objects ARE gendered ("I have a ball, he is red" or "The committee has presented her report to the president").

Languages are weird. Which is why change is good, everyone. It may not be easy, it certainly can be awkward, but it's good and we need to perpetuate it. 

Is there a rule to which inanimate objects are which gender or when to use which pronouns? Because that sounds really confusing.

[March Hare]

Just now, Sitruuna said:

Is there a rule to which in animate objects are which gender or when to use which pronouns? Because that sounds really confusing.

Yes, there is, and yes, it is. It's sort of like how in French words get either the "m" def. article 'le' or the "f" def. article 'la', except we have only one where the French have two. Mostly it's words that "mean something feminine" and words that end in -heid, -ie and so on. There are FAR more "M" words than "F" ones, as well. It doesn't come up AS often as in French, though. (That language seriously binary-genders EVERYTHING.)

[tma]

On 7/26/2016 at 10:15 AM, Sitruuna said:

Also sorry for everyone who I might call "they" instead of what they have listed. The mobile theme doesn't show your pronouns with every post (you have to go to the member's profile to see them)

Same here.  Particularly if I'm in chat.  Because I honestly am not good with remembering certain things, and it isn't that I don't care.  Heck, I'll mix up names at various times.  

 

On 7/29/2016 at 10:32 PM, March Hare said:

It doesn't come up AS often as in French, though. (That language seriously binary-genders EVERYTHING.)

It really does and I seriously don't know how in the heck they do it.  Like what frickin' gender is a rock?  Or a table or a shoe?  (I do know these, however I'm meaning that it just seems pretty random and how would a person *know* which gender - well... other than just through memorization?)

[Sitruuna]

29 minutes ago, tma said:

It really does and I seriously don't know how in the heck they do it.  Like what frickin' gender is a rock?  Or a table or a shoe?  (I do know these, however I'm meaning that it just seems pretty random and how would a person *know* which gender - well... other than just through memorization?)

I struggled with Swedish dividing substantives to en and ett and I still have no idea which words are which (I think most food words might have been ett?) and that has nothing to do with gendering stuff (or of it does no one mentioned that to us) which just makes it more abstract somehow? Like I can understand that words have varying particles and cases but when you start gendering inanimate objects and even consepts my brains stop working because the whole idea is so weird.

on the other hand I am perfectly all right with Finnish nouns having ~2000 and verbs ~11000 forms due to all the cases and such 8 )

[March Hare]

It reminds me that I'll have to go looking for some information on European gender-conscious communities. It's all very well getting cyber-bombarded on a regular basis with what people are doing in the US, but when hat comes to band, that's still on the other end of the world from where I'm trying to learn.