UK members- how do you feel about the 'British' term? Other members please post as well :)

[Smokey]

I read a really interesting article a while and it has got me thinking about the term 'British' and what it means to us here in the UK.

Basically it was all about Scotland and the upcoming Independence vote in 2014, i have been taking a really keen interest in this ( although i must admit i do not feel it's for me to say how Scotland should decide on whether to stay or leave the Union), the article itself was by a Scottish writer for the Huffington post- i could tell that he was trying to be slightly impartial, although you could clearly tell he was very much in favor of Scotland going Independent ( and i had a sneaky look at his Twitter which confirmed it ).

According to him whatever Scotland votes for in 2014 the Union as we know is finished- even those in the Scottish Parliament wishing for Scotland to remain in the Union are calling for more powers to be devolved to the Scottish Parliament ( and David Cameron pretty much confirmed that that would happen if Scotland votes no in 2014), so the term British is apparently going to be redundant.

I also noticed that many Scottish Olympians had to confirm whether they felt Scottish or British- leading to Sir Chris Hoy and Andy Murray quite angrily stating that they felt they could say both- the term 'Scolympians' was even derived by some nationalists. But what surprises me is how people respond to this, the venomous patriotism that comes from some Scottish and English people over the whole thing, comments below articles can be horrific, some Scottish nationalists will say how every 'true Scotsman will vote yes in 2014' then some angry English person will reply with something pretty unpleasant.

What is 'British' when we think about it? I mean do members here from the UK describe themselves as British? Or Scottish? English? Welsh? Should this whole independence debate be centered on patriotism?

The article in question was also stating how eventually more powers would be devolved to the Welsh and Northern Ireland Assembly's- now don't want to turn into a raving nationalist here, but isn't it about time England had their own parliament? I've been looking up and reading quite a bit about the current status and set up of the Union lately and it does seem that England doesn't come of as well in the grand scheme of things, but maybe we need to wait and see how Scotland vote before we get that.

None of the MP's want to address this issue- Ed Miliband quickly squashed any talk of an English parliament in an interview, saying that all he was getting is a feeling of 'Britishness'- now obviously he doesn't want the Union to break up so you could say he has an agenda for saying that- but i don't hear many Scots or Welsh saying there 'British'.

Do you think that the term 'British' is coming to an end? If you live in the UK do you identify yourself as British, Scottish, Welsh or English?

Really interested to hear peoples opinions here- but i hope my comments don't offend anyone living in Scotland or Wales

[Dye]

I usually call myself either 'English' or 'a Brit', if this goes through, the last term will be gone, though I'll still say it, habit and all.

The first term is sometimes confusing, am I identifying myself as someone from England, or someone who speaks the English Language? (in which case, I could live anywhere)

[tma]

The US people just like to call y'all Brits. *teasing grin*

[Vetinari]

Oddly enough James, I had a conversation at the weekend with a group of people from a number of different countries about people's perceptions of different races. They had all been attending a meeting about how to deal with people from other cultures in internetional business. I commented to these people that my perception was that you tended to get a more friendly positive response from people if you identified as Scottish rather than British. My impression is that Scotland appears to outsiders as being small and friendly and innoffensive, whereas Britain is seen as far more arrogant and aggressive. Whether those perceptions are in any way accurate is another matter, but there seems to be a definite advantage internationally in identifying as "from Scotland" and those I was discussing this with agreed.

On any official document I would always identify as British. Technically I am English as I was born there but I probably wouldn't identify as English. I have, initially through my parents, and later by choice, spent most of my life in Scotland, and therefore I slur things and say "from Scotland" when asked. English also actually sounds better to me than British, if I had to choose. Again, I wonder whether this is an overhang from "British Empire", now perceived as being a very arrogant and bad thing, even if at the time I don't think it was necessarily as much of a negative thing as it is now portrayed.

[Pearlised]

I identify as Scottish, not British.

Though this is because many from outside the UK with little education on it (and that's not a bad thing) see British AS England. Like, they think it's the same thing and that is a constant source of annoyance.

I'm gonna vote independence when the referendum come around for reasons that I won't list so as not to offend some of the lovely lovely members

And I think that the TERM 'British' will continue on in the hearts of the English and welsh

[Joal 555]

I come from Leeds, which is in Yorkshire, which is in England, which is part of Britain, which is in Europe, which is part of the world.

I'm happy to be identified as ANY of the above.....and I think of myself as ALL of the above

[Sneeze999]

I am TECHNICALLY British, but prefer to think of myself as a Jerseyman more than British.

On the subject of the Scottish Independance vote. I, personally, think that it would be a HUGE mistake for Scotland to go-it-alone. They don't have the resources, the exports or the finances to survive more than a year on their own, after that they will be bankrupt and begging to be let back in. Although that is kinda hypocritical of me to say, as Jersey is currently considering it's place as a British island after several laws were passed by the British government that were clearly discriminatory against Jersey and the other Channel Islands. And i am in favour of us becomming independant lol. Mostly because our finance industry will keep us afloat, especially with the links we are building with China and the MIddle-East.

[Healer]

I'm from Wales, and for the most part we call ourselves our British. Wales has already expressed disinterest in independence, and our assembly is pretty aware that, even a bit more devolution would probably be a mistake for us (Wales is very, very poor)

I identify more as 'British' than 'Welsh', but I don't live very far to the border, so that might have influenced me a bit.

It's a very odd state of affairs, in Wales, really. Since, even if you forget 'Britain' there is still actually some 'grouping' called 'England and Wales', that (as you can tell) Wales is part of. Also, Wales isn't particularly big, so you can't go in 'deep' enough, to really find a particularly large group of hard-core nationalists who would be anti-England/Britain. However, Scotland's massive, so the Northern areas are more likely to be a bit more fierce, and Ireland isn't even connected to England, which is how they easily gained their independence (same with the Channel Islands and Jersey, really).

On Scottish Independence, my view is that whatever Scotland ask for is right. I don't really care much about national identity, but if people do, then they have a right to ask for their own identity,.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Most Welsh people are fine with being called British, since being in Britain is the only thing that's preventing us from becoming an incredibly poor country, right now, and I would include myself in that, for the same reasons, really.

[Pearlised]

On the subject of the Scottish Independance vote. I, personally, think that it would be a HUGE mistake for Scotland to go-it-alone. They don't have the resources, the exports or the finances to survive more than a year on their own, after that they will be bankrupt and begging to be let back in.

Alternatively, if Scottish resources, exports and finances weren't being drained by England then we might stand a chance. Imagine the amount we'd save.

But this isn't the snake pit, sorry for the momentary thread jack!

[Giant Steps]

On the subject of the Scottish Independance vote. I, personally, think that it would be a HUGE mistake for Scotland to go-it-alone. They don't have the resources, the exports or the finances to survive more than a year on their own, after that they will be bankrupt and begging to be let back in. Although that is kinda hypocritical of me to say, as Jersey is currently considering it's place as a British island after several laws were passed by the British government that were clearly discriminatory against Jersey and the other Channel Islands. And i am in favour of us becomming independant lol. Mostly because our finance industry will keep us afloat, especially with the links we are building with China and the MIddle-East.

Wait, you think Jersey has a better chance at independence than Scotland?? Are you guys even technically part of the UK to begin with?

Well anyway, if asked I'd say I'm Scottish first but obviously I'm British as well. It's a geographical term, no? Great Britain is the island, the United Kingdom is the island + those freindly folks in Northern Ireland. I don't understand how Scots refuse to be called British. You just are. You can't dispute that, surely? Well, not for another 2 years anyway. Speaking of which it's perhaps worth mentioning I'm neither here nor there, at the moment. Independence is a nice idea, sure. FREEEEEDOOOMMMMM and all that. But is it practical? I don't know yet. But I'm very interested to see what arguments can be put forward in the next year or so!

A little peeve of mine I want to bring up while we're here....

AMERICANS! There's no such thing as a "British accent". Britain is a union of 3 countries with 3 distinct accents and countless local dialects for each. A British accent doesn't exist. So if ya'll could just start to slide that in to your society that would be great, ta.

[count tiszula]

I find this all very depressing. Firstly, however mad the Scotch are, I can't believe they are really going to vote for independence. It would be disastrous for them, and let's face it pretty disastrous for Britain as a whole.

I simply don;t understand where this sheer hatred and ingratitude has come from. It is all the odder since when I was young everyone wanted to be Scotch because it was so romantic; all that Braveheart nonsense, Young Lochinvar, the redcoats are in the heather, and not a lot of people know that, Davie. Play the flowers of the forest, pipey , Carry the lad that's born to be king, Lethington, Lethington..... In my student days I knew loads of Scotchmen, and there was none of this unthinking hatred. If anything it was Northerners who had an unreasoning hatred of Southerners, but I suspect this is still the case, since many Northerners now claim not to be English.

And if I understand this thread correctly, scotch writers somehow feel that independence will somehow deprive the English of the possibility of calling themselves British. The fact is however that possibly the only advantage would be that we could go back to being English and not have to remember that we're supposed to be British , which we've had to try and remember for the last century or so. And of course we'd be allowed to call the Scotch Scotch again, as they do themselves.

However, since Northern Ireland is most unlikely to seek independence, I think we're stuck with Britain.

My own solution is of course the restoration of the Kingdom of Kent. After all, Moscow told us all for decades that England is the worst country in the world, and we all believed it.

[Smokey]

It's really interesting to hear everyone's views

Perhaps in the grand scheme of things, Britain as we know it will change in the near future whatever the outcome of Scotland's 2014 vote, i do feel eventually each country will get their own parliaments and such- though the government in Westminster will fight tooth and nail to keep England from having their vote until last... What's interesting is how Alex Salmond is desperately pushing the 'Union of Crowns' term- which existed before the union itself was actually formed- perhaps that is the way the union will be in years to come, i mean politics divides people ad certainly if you where to look at the political map of the UK as a whole England and Wales are still voting the Tory/Labour/Lib Dem ( although Wales has the Plaid Cymru party which could do an SNP in the future) whilst Scotland have ditched the Tory's and really taken the SNP vote on!!

Hopefully if Scotland do go Independent in 2014 we will still remain good neighbours- sadly i have heard some pretty unpleasant comments debates over the issue from both English and Scottish citizens which is very sad, it's amazing how national pride comes out and people get so defensive over love of their country. I do feel it's kind of sad that those in Scotland who are supporting the No to Independence vote in 2014 have to proclaim how patriotic they are- should it really be about that? Surely everyone from the yes or no sides are voting that way because of how much they love there country anyway?

I do have to ask, do some Scottish generally feel oppressed by the English? And do the Welsh? I read an article written by a Welsh historian who stated that many Welsh people felt free when the Welsh Assembly was established as many felt they had been generally 'oppressed by the English...

I'm not so clued up on the way each parliament works so, i couldn't say whether England do drain Scotland's resources or Scotland drain England's- maybe each country in the world simply just drains each others resources?

I think when it comes down to it, the English have a far different view on nationality then other countries do- when i was in Edinburgh a few months back, literally every building flew the Scottish flag from it ( and admittedly there where a fair few union jacks flying as well) now that is certainly not the case in England, you would instantly be deemed a member of the BNP, EDL, some far right group etc so i think many decide it's not worth the hassle.

Interestingly TheMorpher the current leader of Plaid Cymru Leanne Wood has stated that she strongly believes Wales will achieve independence within a generation... But then i suppose she would say that, i mean it is her whole aim after all- but do Plaid Cymru have much support base in Wales?

I do hope this thread remains positive and we don't get upset or take things the wrong way- maybe it should be moved into the Snake pit though?

[Vetinari]

I don't understand how Scots refuse to be called British.

I don't know if anyone is refusing to be called British: surely it's more that, when given a choice, they would answer Scottish in preference.

I simply don;t understand where this sheer hatred and ingratitude has come from. It is all the odder since when I was young everyone wanted to be Scotch because it was so romantic; all that Braveheart nonsense, Young Lochinvar, the redcoats are in the heather, and not a lot of people know that, Davie. Play the flowers of the forest, pipey , Carry the lad that's born to be king, Lethington, Lethington..... In my student days I knew loads of Scotchmen, and there was none of this unthinking hatred.

Presumably all the Scotchmen you knew were at a posh English varsity so probably not all that representitive. My personal experience of the Scots was that there was some anti-English feeling, but it was more reflex and not all that serious, except amongst children, who picked up the vibe and tended to be cruel, as children are. Oddly enough, the anti-English feeling was much stronger in the south. If you went up to the far north, it just wasn't there.

Count, you mention ingratitude. Obviously all Scots should be intensely grateful to you superior Englishmen for you allowing them to be a member of your little club.

But more seriously, and partly aimed at James, even if we do agree that both partners ought to be grateful to each other, I can't see a great deal really for which the Scots should be grateful in recent years. I was living there in the eighties, when I believe those in the south were having a boom, but I was in a Scottish mining town where the pit was closed down and there were people begging on the streets for help. Not only that, but compared with Norway, which got to keep its own oil money and used it wisely, the UK government of that time decided to produce as much as they could, as fast as they could, and spent the lot. There is a possibility, that had Scotland been independent back then, their country could have been doing as well as Norway is right now. Personally I'm not that surprised if the people of Scotland aren't feeling all that happy with the union at the moment.

I do have to ask, do some Scottish generally feel oppressed by the English?

The politics in Scotland tends to be quite left-wing, and therefore I think there is a long standing feeling of alientation, particularly as the UK as a whole appears to have become more and more right wing ever since Margaret Thatcher was in power. My personal feeling is that Scotland is particularly ill-represented by the current government/cabinet. I think it is particularly unfortunate at the moment that so many of the public figures in power are so very quintessentially posh English. There is a danger in that because it would seem to me that there is a much greater chance that Scotland will choose independence at this juncture, whereas thirty years ago, there wasn't really particularly strong feeling on the matter.

[tma]

A little peeve of mine I want to bring up while we're here....

AMERICANS! There's no such thing as a "British accent". Britain is a union of 3 countries with 3 distinct accents and countless local dialects for each. A British accent doesn't exist. So if ya'll could just start to slide that in to your society that would be great, ta.

Sorry... I just had to laugh at this. I confess that I do sometimes do that when I should say "English" accent. Although since we in the US do presumably speak English I think that it sounds odd to our ears sometimes to say English accent. And American accent doesn't exist either. It differs *Vastly* by region.

And- I think that I do really well (as a USer on being able distinguish between the variety of accents within Britian. As even in England there is a variety.

Sorry for digression- but it tempted and amused me.

[Smokey]

You make very interesting and valid points Vetinari, i was born mid- eighties so although having heard a lot about the difficulties that many faced throughout the UK at the time, i cannot begin to imagine what it must have been like to actually live it , you are certainly right about the current cabinet, but i think even at the next general election if for example Labour get in power again, there won't be much difference for Scotland's representative sadly- in fact i feel no country is really that well of in the current set up to be honest, perhaps it's time to at the very least devolve powers to a parliament for all four countries at the least, thereby creating one for England, and changing the Welsh and Northern Ireland Assembly's into parliaments.

I found this site earlier- called 'campaign for an English parliament' i have found it quite interesting to read what they say about the union- and naturally not a lot of it is good! I do hope i'm not coming across a 'English nationalist' or anything, i just feel with the possibility of Scotland going independent in a couple of years English people need to start thinking about our own country and maybe what route we would like to choose- i also hope i'm not sounding like Scotland should or shouldn't stay in the union, honestly i do not feel it's me to say, i am very much of the opinion that whatever they choose is right for them .

I think in fairness a lot of English people use the term 'british' simply because English has sadly become associated with far right groups such as the 'English Defence League' and generally because an awful lot of English people do feel pretty ashamed of their country's past, also the media refuse to even consider the term 'English' they naturally use the term Scottish and Northern Irish and just about accept the term Welsh, but English never. Ed Miliband completely hushed any talk of 'English' earlier this year, saying we all wanted to be 'British' i'm sure many people across England, Scotland, Wales Northern, Ireland etc had a good laugh at his comments.

As for Jersey, they are part of the 'Channel Islands' they are not part of the United Kingdom, but a Crown dependency, Queen Elizabeth is head of state there, i believe the power to pass legislation affecting the islands ultimately rests with their own respective legislative assemblies, with the assent of the Crown ( Privy Council)- but if other forum members can comment on this and perhaps improve on my own rather poor knowledge please do

[Sneeze999]

Wait, you think Jersey has a better chance at independence than Scotland?? Are you guys even technically part of the UK to begin with? Posted Image

Yes, we are part of the UK. But we have our own government that the UK are not allowed to be involved in. However, they have passed several laws about exports from the channel islands that have caused mass unemployment and lots of companies to leave the island, which has caused a disastrous downturn in the islands economical position. And they knew this would be the result before they passed the laws. And this has enraged most of the population, which is why we are considering leaving the UK and the commonwealth. And yes, we would probably cope better than Scotland if our ties with the UK were severed as we have built up ties with Europe, the Middle East and China.

[Vetinari]

I do hope i'm not coming across a 'English nationalist' or anything

I think it is really sad that you feel the need to say this. As you say, the EDL and so on have made rather a bad name for English nationalism, but if you love England you shouldn't be afraid of being patriotic. In fact that is one of the reasons I actually fell in love with Scotland, because there is a much clearer sense of national identity. There are flags, and people enjoy flying them and no harm in that. It's the same here in Norway. They love their country and aren't afraid to show it.

And I am finding it rather sad that there has been at least two people who seem to think that Scotland wouldn't be able to make it on her own, if that is what her people decide they want. It may not be easy to begin with, but internationally Scotland is quite well regarded. And of course, it may be that they will vote against independence, or that (as occurred last time) there may not be sufficient strong feeling amongst the general populus to push the vote through. It's just a bad time for the whole of the UK at the moment I believe. No wonder some people are feeling disgruntled, but that isn't necessarily a reason to break away entirely. But there do seem to be a few people who look down on Scotland, and perhaps that is one of the reasons that the Scots do feel disgruntled now and again.

[Pearlised]

And I am finding it rather sad that there has been at least two people who seem to think that Scotland wouldn't be able to make it on her own, if that is what her people decide they want. It may not be easy to begin with, but internationally Scotland is quite well regarded. And of course, it may be that they will vote against independence, or that (as occurred last time) there may not be sufficient strong feeling amongst the general populus to push the vote through. It's just a bad time for the whole of the UK at the moment I believe. No wonder some people are feeling disgruntled, but that isn't necessarily a reason to break away entirely. But there do seem to be a few people who look down on Scotland, and perhaps that is one of the reasons that the Scots do feel disgruntled now and again.

you say what I'm thinking in a much clearer and inoffensive way

[Raven Insight]

It better not be coming to an end! Considering the very word "British" makes me think of accents, then Daniel Radcliffle, followed by Harry Potter and I'm instantly interested.

[Smokey]

I do hope i'm not coming across a 'English nationalist' or anything

I think it is really sad that you feel the need to say this. As you say, the EDL and so on have made rather a bad name for English nationalism, but if you love England you shouldn't be afraid of being patriotic. In fact that is one of the reasons I actually fell in love with Scotland, because there is a much clearer sense of national identity. There are flags, and people enjoy flying them and no harm in that. It's the same here in Norway. They love their country and aren't afraid to show it.

And I am finding it rather sad that there has been at least two people who seem to think that Scotland wouldn't be able to make it on her own, if that is what her people decide they want. It may not be easy to begin with, but internationally Scotland is quite well regarded. And of course, it may be that they will vote against independence, or that (as occurred last time) there may not be sufficient strong feeling amongst the general populus to push the vote through. It's just a bad time for the whole of the UK at the moment I believe. No wonder some people are feeling disgruntled, but that isn't necessarily a reason to break away entirely. But there do seem to be a few people who look down on Scotland, and perhaps that is one of the reasons that the Scots do feel disgruntled now and again.

Thank you for saying that , sadly groups like the EDL and BNP have put such a bad and unpleasant stigma with the St Georges flag, that people here are to afraid to show any kind of patriotism towards just England in general- the union flag though has become more prominent in the last couple of years, especially with the Jubilee and the Olympics and it will be interesting to see if it lasts, i think one thing that did help was the governments 'Great British Summer' campaign they really did push- don't get me wrong i'm not a big fan of our government at the moment but i do think it was good of them to at least allow a bit of pride without the usual pc worry.

I definitely agree with you regarding Scotland- i went there for the first time this Summer and i absolutely fell in love with it, i loved how patriotic and proud they are of there country and how welcoming and down everyone was, plus from a history fanatic point of you Edinburgh and the beautiful and enchanting Balmoral are just places you could quite happily stay in. I agree the UK right now is not in a good way at all and i think it's so sad that some nasty lot this side of the border are feeding the view that Scotland hates us English just because some Scottish want independence therefore creating unnecessary bad feelings and damaging any sort of relationship we have.

[Smokey]

Wait, you think Jersey has a better chance at independence than Scotland?? Are you guys even technically part of the UK to begin with? Posted Image

Yes, we are part of the UK. But we have our own government that the UK are not allowed to be involved in. However, they have passed several laws about exports from the channel islands that have caused mass unemployment and lots of companies to leave the island, which has caused a disastrous downturn in the islands economical position. And they knew this would be the result before they passed the laws. And this has enraged most of the population, which is why we are considering leaving the UK and the commonwealth. And yes, we would probably cope better than Scotland if our ties with the UK were severed as we have built up ties with Europe, the Middle East and China.

Oh wow i didn't realise that Jersey was considering leaving the UK AND the Commonwealth- why the Commonwealth as well? That's not really a political governance as the EU is for example. Though having looked up a bit about Jersey i do see that you guys have been treated pretty crap by the government in general- being passed around from cabinet to cabinet over the years.

In fairness to Scotland, they have built up many ties as well internationally, and i believe they will be remaining as part of the Commonwealth and the EU if they do choose Independence.

[vote_for_pedro]

A little peeve of mine I want to bring up while we're here....

AMERICANS! There's no such thing as a "British accent". Britain is a union of 3 countries with 3 distinct accents and countless local dialects for each. A British accent doesn't exist. So if ya'll could just start to slide that in to your society that would be great, ta.

I just want to say that I've been following this thread and I feel both educated and entertained by it. But this little bit here by Giant Steps? I can't tell if you're being serious of not! All I know is that i laughed very hard at this.

[Smokey]

In fairness to Giant Steps, i can see where he's coming from slightly- in June this year there was a historic meeting in Northern Ireland between The Queen and Deputy first minister Martin McGuiness ( former member of the IRA, now a member of Sinn Fein), basically for those that don't know they refuse to accept Northern Ireland as part of the union and sovereignty of The Queen, in one of their statements at the time, they kept referring to The Queen as 'Queen of England', this caused much irritation among a lot of people throughout the UK- may sound a little silly to some outsiders, but with all four countries future as a union is in question it create some nationality upset.

[Sneeze999]

why the Commonwealth as well?

Mostly as a kind of 'screw you' to the UK after the way we have been treated, although i don't really think it would be necessary for us to leave the commonwealth. As long as we don't join the EU if we do leave! lol

[Smokey]

why the Commonwealth as well?

Mostly as a kind of 'screw you' to the UK after the way we have been treated, although i don't really think it would be necessary for us to leave the commonwealth. As long as we don't join the EU if we do leave! lol

Lol fair enough, if push came to shove though do you think that people in Jersey would really vote to leave? Or do you think it's also kind of more of a warning to Westminster to stop treating you guys like crap? Apart from the way Westminster has treated you guys, do people like being part of the union there?