Compulsory age (range) on profiles?

[Jorm]

Hey, Heath- it was just a suggestion, and (at least to me) seemed like a good possible way to "meet in the middle". I don't think that you have anything to apologise for at all.

Thank you to people who have said this. I was exaggerating a bit, I don't feel like this is "all my fault". But it's still nice to hear people still support me for raising the issue in the first place.

I find it very interesting that most of the arguments I've seen here in support of compulsory age disclosure are to do with protecting ADULT members from potential discomfort and awkwardness, not to do with protecting minors from being taken advantage of.

Yes, you are right- the reason I started this thread was more about making the adults feel comfortable than having a big effect to protect the minors. Maybe I could have made that clearer- but I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

It's not a one-or-the-other; a change that makes the adults more comfortable doesn't necessarily make the minors more vulnerable. Suppose an older member comments on an obs by a minor, where the ages are not clear from the context. A visible age may prompt the older member to avoid using language like "hot sneezes" or "sexy sneezes" in their comment because they would feel awkward if they did. That might prevent the minor member getting comments which they were not prepared for and which made them feel uncomfortable.

...and if you're saying "but that problem could be solved by having 'Err on the side of caution' as a rule", then yeah- you're right. It would. I wish I had accepted that to begin with and not started this thread.

I agree both that there's nothing wrong with it, and that it's not necessarily and an either-or situation, depending on how it's addressed, I'm just not convinced that compulsory age listing is the way to go about it. I would rather see a rule that observations, stories, and artwork featuring minors (and posted by minors, who should be the only ones posting U18 material anyway) can only be posted on the youth board. That way adults would be protected from accidentally reading U18 material, and subsequently protected from accidentally commenting inappropriately, and it minors would be protected from intentionally inappropriate attention from any pedophiles who might be lurking around. At the very least, I don't think self-obs by minors should be allowed to be posted outside of the youth board, there's simply no valid reason for anyone other than other minors to read those, and most of us who are over 18 don't want to.

Differing opinions aside, I don't think you have any cause to apologize for starting this thread.

[Heathcliff]

I would rather see a rule that observations, stories, and artwork featuring minors (and posted by minors, who should be the only ones posting U18 material anyway) can only be posted on the youth board.

That's fair enough- I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea, and I agree it would be a good deal more effective than mine at protecting both adults and minors.

The thing is, Jorm- when I started this thread, this idea (and others like it) had been discussed extensively in the "Inappropriate Actions" thread, and the general tone of the response seemed to be "we've considered this, but the answer is no". For example, HoL linked the topic in the adult board "Separate all observations by age?" which contains a similar proposal, and a detailed response from the Staff as to why they decided not to do it.

Given that this idea had already been rejected, the point of this topic was to suggest a less drastic change that might not be as effective as yours, but which the staff might actually say yes to.

[Jorm]

Ah, I appear to have missed that part of the discussion.

[Oolia]

Yeah this was supposed to be a last ditch effort to get something in place. I think everyone who supported the age range actually wanted to separate the U18 obs, RP and fics, but seeing as it wasn't going to happen, we tried to offer a compromise (that didn't turn out at all like we expected).

[haeeshoo]

I've read most (if not all) of the replies in this topic and I want to chime in (probably a bad idea but I can never resist a good discussion):

While I fully understand the frustration of the people in favor of displaying age, there's a proverbial elephant in the room that is mostly ignored (although e.g. superman mentioned it early on):

as long as age cannot be verified it adds no protection whatsoever

Relying on displayed age therefore is nothing short of fooling ourselves to makes us feel better. It's based on belief, it's a false sense of security.

You simply cannot ignore this basic fact, no matter how much you'd like things to be different.

It's not feasible or even possible for the staff to reliably confirm the real age for every member. In a court of law, an unverified age probably has no meaning at all - it's random noise at best. For this reason, I think the status quo (unfortunately) cannot be *fundamentally* improved. Making the board 18+ only is no guarantee, since it's basically impossible to have a fool-proof check of 18+-ness (use your big brother's credit card...). And in fact, I predict it would invite U18s to lie more about their age than they probably currently do, just "to get in".

My humble opinion (and feel free to disagree) is, that since a foolproof solution is not possible, it is best to report unwanted behavior to the staff as soon as you experience/notice it and let them take appropriate actions (warnings, bans, ... whatever as needed by the circumstances).

I fully understand that reporting behavior is an after-the-facts thing that in an ideal world would have been prevented before it could ever happen, but unfortunately there's no fool-proof way to prevent all such problems.

I do think (but I'm open for debate ) that it would make sense to log all conversations (including *private* chats and pms) and ip addresses where only the owner can access them to investigate reports of unwanted behavior, or to cooperate with police investigations after predators.

The forum constitution should then also clearly mention what data they keep so no one needs to act surprised or feel violated in their privacy. In many countries this is enforced by law, but I don't know how it is where the forum server is located. Sites like facebook, paypal or google force their users to acknowledge a new policy or shut down the level of access to their services if you choose not to comply. If you want the benefits, you agree to the logging. It's incredibly frustrating to report unwanted behavior and then get the reply "yeah, we hear ya, but we have no proof". This also means that if the board is ever cracked your chat logs could end up in the streets. So, behave! Obviously this is no different from other social media (where, in fact, damage of a crack or identity theft is typically much, much worse).

I have said what I wanted to say now and spent too much time on formulating and reformulating my points.

If I made any mistakes in my analysis I'll be glad to hear it.

[tma]

Interesting take on this, haee. I'm glad that you brought up some points that I don't think were brought up before, and at least got *me* thinking about this from a new angle.

[Dusty15]

Thanks for your thoughtful post, Hae. I just wanted to point out the following things

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[Oolia]

It's not feasible or even possible for the staff to reliably confirm the real age for every member. In a court of law, an unverified age probably has no meaning at all - it's random noise at best. For this reason, I think the status quo (unfortunately) cannot be *fundamentally* improved. Making the board 18+ only is no guarantee, since it's basically impossible to have a fool-proof check of 18+-ness (use your big brother's credit card...). And in fact, I predict it would invite U18s to lie more about their age than they probably currently do, just "to get in".

In my opinion, allowing U18 on the forum is basically putting a target on their back, because whether or not they display their (real) age, their obs and other discussions about their lives make it obvious to anyone that they are U18. If the forum was 18+, yes they could lie about their age, but then they couldn't post U18 obs and specific things about their lives (i.e. school and home life) because it would reveal their real age. This would mean that they'd be harder to find in a forum full of what seems to be adults, and we wouldn't have ANY U18 content anywhere on here.

It would also be honestly very easy to spot the younger ones and ban them.

I disagree with the argument that because we can't prove a member's age, we might as well encourage U18 members to join in. We can still report unwanted behavior on an 18+ forum, and frankly, any U18 who wishes to interact with adults, even on the forum as it is now, can't be stopped, because it will most likely happen outside of the forum anyway.

That said, we all know the forum will never be 18+, so at this point we are just looking for ways to make it more comfortable for adults to enjoy their time on the forum, and I don't think it's unreasonable to get as much of a warning as possible when reading posts containing U18 content, may it be by mandating an actual age range (and again, we could report those who are clearly younger than they say they are based on how they talk about their daily lives) or, even better and safer for everyone, by locking the U18 content in the U18 board (but that suggestion has been shot down so... yeah.)

[Heathcliff]

I had a few points to make in response to Haee's post, but Azu has made them very well so I'll just say this:

My humble opinion (and feel free to disagree) is, that since a foolproof solution is not possible, it is best to report unwanted behavior to the staff as soon as you experience/notice it and let them take appropriate actions (warnings, bans, ... whatever as needed by the circumstances).

I think you maybe got the wrong end of the stick here, Haee. The point of this thread- and I wish I'd been clearer about this at the start- was to make things easier and more comfortable for the well-meaning adults on the forum. It was to help them avoid reading obs posted by a minor if they didn't want to; to help them avoid saying something which they might consider inappropriate to a minor, in a comment or in chat.

I was not claiming this would provide far more protection for minors from predators on the forum; because as you point out, it clearly won't. Of course the best thing there is to report dodgy behaviour to the staff; but that's not really what we're talking about here.

[Sageacity]

The thing is, I'm kind of perturbed by how this has been brought on mainly for the adults who don't want to be scarred when they stumble upon an obs written by a minor, or a minor with a hidden age and the obs starts in a high school setting. If changes are going to be made permanently, it should be with both sides of the spectrum in consideration, the comfort of the adults and the comfort of the minors. But I'm not in charge, sorry- just going 'round and 'round with my concerns.

There's been talk of a "well this IS a fetish forum and other fetish forums are 18+" and yes that is a valid point, but the fact remains for however long minors have been allowed to register, this is a forum for basically everyone, not just adults. Which is why I joined in the first place, for all aspects this forum provides from pure talk/tomfoolery, pure fetish, or to relate with others with the fetish. If this was a forum strictly for gratification well... I wouldn't be here.

And how many people make a habit of glancing at the person's age before they start reading anything published or said here? I do not, but feel free to say otherwise if any of you do. It would be most logical to have the tag u18 in the title of any obs posted in the neutral obs thread, and still allow any u18 to participate unless the obs is particularly erotic. I understand that "snez" talk however G rated is enough for some to be of a sexual nature and to put them off, but there is a diverse range of members here who operate differently.

Since we're bringing up obs, that is generally where users seem to be having issues, correct?

[bloom]

I agree with both Azu's and Heath's posts, again.

And how many people make a habit of glancing at the person's age before they start reading anything published or said here? I do not, but feel free to say otherwise if any of you do.

I definitely do. There are some things I just straight-up do not want to see coming from people under a certain age. When I get to reliably memorize how old a certain poster is I basically put them on mental ignore for fetish-related threads because it grosses me right out the door.

I understand that "snez" talk however G rated is enough for some to be of a sexual nature and to put them off, but there is a diverse range of members here who operate differently.

Here's the thing about this, though - when there is such an enormous range of how people feel about this fetish, everything from "I just think it's cute" to "I find it to be extremely inherently sexual," we kind of have to err on the side of the latter just for safety. On a fetish forum it is much safer to assume everybody here is interested in sneezing in a sexual way, and I feel really strongly that we need to treat talking about sneezing as talking about something sexual at its core. It's just better to do that and be on the safe side.

[Heathcliff]

The thing is, I'm kind of perturbed by how this has been brought on mainly for the adults who don't want to be scarred when they stumble upon an obs written by a minor, or a minor with a hidden age and the obs starts in a high school setting. If changes are going to be made permanently, it should be with both sides of the spectrum in consideration, the comfort of the adults and the comfort of the minors.

I'm sure I've said this more than once before, but... just because the change makes things more comfortable for adult members does NOT mean it is detrimental to the minors on the forum.

And how many people make a habit of glancing at the person's age before they start reading anything published or said here? I do not, but feel free to say otherwise if any of you do.

I do. Why wouldn't I? Perhaps you cannot understand... you're a 22-year-old woman, I'm a 32-year-old man. If I go into the chatroom here and casually say "Hi", I could be greeting someone as young as 13.

Do you know what people would say about a 32-year-old man chatting to a 13-year-old on the internet? On a 'fetish forum'? Because I can think of some things they would say. At least, at least give me a chance to see the age of such a person so I can conduct myself appropriately around them.

[Sageacity]

As far as my priorities go, removing the "not telling" option is the lowest ranking of concerns to me. If it will honestly help, then I agree that omitting the "not teliing" option with the age range being the lesser of two evils (age range < actual age), just that it be tweaked possibly, that is the 13 to 17 gap. The second to most important is restricting minors obs of all shapes to the youth board. But the first and foremost worry of mine, is that a decision is made to make SFF 18+ only, as it is a suggestion that has been re-occurring in this topic and the topic this branched off of. That theme is what mainly fueled my previous post, sorry for the confusion.

[bloom]

But the first and foremost worry of mine, is that a decision is made to make SFF 18+ only, as it is a suggestion that has been re-occurring in this topic and the topic this branched off of. That theme is what mainly fueled my previous post, sorry for the confusion.

Don't worry about that, Nef. That's something staff have said time and time again won't happen, and I think a large number of the regular membership is also strenuously opposed.

[Leafeon78]

Even if the they made the forum 18+ they would have to lock or ban the minor accounts so they can't get accesses again or stop the registration form so that stops anyone from joining.

[Oolia]

Here's the thing about this, though - when there is such an enormous range of how people feel about this fetish, everything from "I just think it's cute" to "I find it to be extremely inherently sexual," we kind of have to err on the side of the latter just for safety. On a fetish forum it is much safer to assume everybody here is interested in sneezing in a sexual way, and I feel really strongly that we need to treat talking about sneezing as talking about something sexual at its core. It's just better to do that and be on the safe side.

This is exactly why I'm always baffled by those who insist on saying that the well-being and safety of U18 members should come first whenever we talk about making it more comfortable for adults around here. Surely if you were honest with yourselves, you'd understand why it's extremely iffy to have kids on a fetish forum to begin with? I feel like those who do are just unable to put themselves in other people's shoes. While my fetish is half sexual, half just fuzzy warm happiness feeling (depending on the situation), I can still understand that for a LOT of members, it is intensely sexual, and to me this makes the entire idea of having U18 members share our space and talk about sneezing with us very uncomfortable, bordering on immoral in some cases. Obviously this will never change, but yes, it is very often part of our posts because we are trying to find a compromise to this, and it is the best way to explain our discomfort.

As I've said before (and sorry for repeating myself so much, but...), the FIRST step we took was to suggest limiting the U18 sneezing-related content posts to the youth board, but it was shot down. The age range was our second suggestion to at least give the adults a more comfortable experience. And as Heath said, there is absolutely nothing wrong in wanting that, and it doesn't mean it will be at the price of our U18 members' safety. I'm kind of tired of having people insinuate that we are selfish for wanting to know who we're interacting with in order to avoid awkward conversations with U18 members. Maybe it doesn't affect you because you think sneezing is just cute, but just for a second, please try to put yourself in our shoes and try to imagine how repulsed we feel when we read an obs only to realize halfway in that it was written by an U18 person. Or when we engage in on-topic discussion with someone in the chat room and realize afterwards that they are 14.

And by the way, this is not directed specifically at you Nef, but to everyone who's brought up the "variety of response to the fetish" argument before

[haeeshoo]

When you register for the Forum, the privacy policy of the Invision Board software states:

Hi Dusty15. Thank you for your clarifications. Is this only visible when registering?

I registered more than ten years ago, and have to admit I don't remember a thing of what it said.

(And maybe it didn't even mention all these things back then?).

I also have to admit I missed the part about logging chat conversations in the constitution.

That's my bad. I should have read more closely, I did a few keyword searches in the constitution

and didn't find what I was looking for, but it never hurts to do one's homework properly. For my

punishment I will reread all of the constitution

I disagree with the argument that because we can't prove a member's age, we might as well encourage U18 members to join in.

Hi Azu, in my defense, I don't recall mentioning "encouraging" U18 members to join anywhere? I just pointed out that age display doesn't serve

any purpose because age is not verified and cannot be verified.

One important function of the forum appears to be coming to terms with having a fetish (or more specifically this fetish) in the first place. This process of searching and (start of) accepting typically happens long before reaching the age of 18 and this important function of the board will be seriously crippled if the board is made 18+ only (except perhaps for the "lucky few" that lie about their age?) I honestly think it'd be a step back from what we have now, at least in that context. On the other hand, I can also see that back when I was u18, there was no internet worth speaking of, and I also survived until I was old enough that the internet as we know it today sprang into existence

I think you maybe got the wrong end of the stick here, Haee. The point of this thread- and I wish I'd been clearer about this at the start- was to make things easier and more comfortable for the well-meaning adults on the forum. It was to help them avoid reading obs posted by a minor if they didn't want to; to help them avoid saying something which they might consider inappropriate to a minor, in a comment or in chat.

Hi Heathcliff, thanks for your clarification. I have to admit I kind of missed the essence of your there. In this specific context the protection of u18 to me somehow seems more important than that of 18+., but obviously, this had then better be discussed in a separate thread, as opposed to further clouding an already cloudy discussion.

I have really thought about ways to do things differently but I cannot come up with something that really makes sense.

E.g. I thought about forcing users to tag their own posts with either #u18 or #18+. That might provide some help towards solving your problem, but it might also invite other people to explicitly look for things tagged with #u18. So we just made their life easier.

Same with age display: someone dedicated to the cause could look up every member's age and then find all contributions of the members in the lower ranges. Or register with false age to get access to youth board etc etc. Many an IT savvy person knows how to change an ip address as well.

The sad truth seems to be that we cannot compensate with only forum technicalities for what is in essence a deep sociological problem.

(Maybe now's the time to repeat how <sarcasm>optimistic</sarcasm> I am about the state of the world we live in ?)

[Jorm]

This is exactly why I'm always baffled by those who insist on saying that the well-being and safety of U18 members should come first whenever we talk about making it more comfortable for adults around here. Surely if you were honest with yourselves, you'd understand why it's extremely iffy to have kids on a fetish forum to begin with? I feel like those who do are just unable to put themselves in other people's shoes.

Above the age of 16 or so, I don't think it's fair to consider them kids, and, well, no, I don't see how it's problematic to have older teens on a fetish forum. I've been thinking the exact same thing about people being able to put themselves in others shoes in the other direction, it seems to me, reading a lot of this, that a lot of people aren't managing to consider the issue from the perspective of a minor who wants to be here, as the minors who are members obviously do.

[Oolia]

The forum is public though, you can still access all of the threads and all of the discussions, figure out that you are not alone and take solace in that. I'm not sure how not being able to reply would hinder your sexual development as a child. Sometimes in life you just have to wait, and it would be much safer for them anyway. If you really think the #1 priority is to keep U18 safe, they just shouldn't be allowed in a sexual forum full of adults masturbating to sneezing-related content that they could write themselves. Maybe you don't masturbate to the content, but you can't imagine that most people don't, because you'd be lying to yourself. If you really want to protect U18 members, then you should logically assume that an adult will find their content sexually gratifying. If you think that letting U18 members take part in discussions about their fetish on a forum full of adult strangers is more important than that, I don't know what to tell you.

I also don't consider 16+ as being kids. When I mention kids, I mean like 13-15 at least, but we have to cut somewhere, and in most places it's 18, so it seems like a safe bet (and also, legal).

And haee, I know you didn't say that we should encourage U18 to join, but that's what most people in favor of U18 members say; that since we can't verify age, we might as well let them join and be honest about their age.

[bloom]

I've been thinking the exact same thing about people being able to put themselves in others shoes in the other direction, it seems to me, reading a lot of this, that a lot of people aren't managing to consider the issue from the perspective of a minor who wants to be here, as the minors who are members obviously do.

Trying to put myself into the mindset I had at 14 when I found this place, obviously I can't know for sure how I'd have felt, but I was a reasonably bright kid and I feel like reading all of the arguments the way they've been presented would have made me understand why adults would feel uncomfortable interacting with minors on a site like this, especially because at this point everybody is acknowledging that the rules regarding underage registration aren't going to change (so I'd feel my membership was safe, I mean). I feel like that's a pretty simple thing for a minor to get. Unless I'm reading your post and you're saying something completely different, which is entirely possible.

[meepsy]

Hi, just chiming in to say that I just made a post requesting age tags for stories, obs, etc -- not realizing that this age issue is already being very heavily discussed over here! I wonder if anyone would agree with me in saying that if we had age filters for the content rather than the poster, it would help us narrow down what was okay to read? Obviously this doesn't really help in the chat room, but I feel like it would be worth while, nonetheless.

I personally feel like minors should definitely be able to use this site as a safe space to talk to others about having this fetish if they need to, as from experience I know that it can be very confusing/isolating when you don't! Although fetishes and sexuality are very adult topics, no one can deny that these feelings spark at a very young age, and teenagers are thinking about sex basically right after puberty hits. I personally have never had much of a problem steering myself away from content I didn't feel comfortable reading -- if I find something with under age content I simply click out of it and move along. (although having the tags would allow me to make that decision before I had to click )

This is just my two cents. Hopefully this age range feature will help the temper issue somewhat.

[Jorm]

The forum is public though, you can still access all of the threads and all of the discussions, figure out that you are not alone and take solace in that. I'm not sure how not being able to reply would hinder your sexual development as a child. Sometimes in life you just have to wait, and it would be much safer for them anyway. If you really think the #1 priority is to keep U18 safe, they just shouldn't be allowed in a sexual forum full of adults masturbating to sneezing-related content that they could write themselves. Maybe you don't masturbate to the content, but you can't imagine that most people don't, because you'd be lying to yourself. If you really want to protect U18 members, then you should logically assume that an adult will find their content sexually gratifying. If you think that letting U18 members take part in discussions about their fetish on a forum full of adult strangers is more important than that, I don't know what to tell you.

Finding solace in the general fact that you're not alone is still a far cry from being able to interact with others who share an unusual trait like this though, and I don't think it's fair to exclude older teens at least on the basis of a largely arbitrarily assigned age of adulthood. I never said that U18 safety was my #1 priority, I said I considered it more of a priority than adult comfort. I also consider allowing older teens access to a place like this to be a priority though, even though, yes, it creates a certain level of inherent risk. For me, it's a question of balancing those two priorities, but it's seems fairly clear from all statements made by staff on this subject that the balance here is going to stay essentially as it is, so there doesn't appear to me much point further discussion of what any of us think that balance should be. But ultimately, in principle, yes, I do think allowing U18 members to participate in the community is more important than the fact that inevitably some adults are going to get sexual pleasure from their posts, though I would support raising the minimum member age to 15 or 16. I'm not overly concerned with what adult members feel privately when browsing the forum so long as their actual interactions are appropriate, and I think preventing and dealing with interactions that aren't appropriate can be done effectively while still allowing U18 members to participate in the forum. Whether it IS dealt with effectively or not, is a different matter of course.

I've been thinking the exact same thing about people being able to put themselves in others shoes in the other direction, it seems to me, reading a lot of this, that a lot of people aren't managing to consider the issue from the perspective of a minor who wants to be here, as the minors who are members obviously do.

Trying to put myself into the mindset I had at 14 when I found this place, obviously I can't know for sure how I'd have felt, but I was a reasonably bright kid and I feel like reading all of the arguments the way they've been presented would have made me understand why adults would feel uncomfortable interacting with minors on a site like this, especially because at this point everybody is acknowledging that the rules regarding underage registration aren't going to change (so I'd feel my membership was safe, I mean). I feel like that's a pretty simple thing for a minor to get. Unless I'm reading your post and you're saying something completely different, which is entirely possible.

I would also feel that my membership was probably safe, but I would also feel fairly unwelcome, and very marginalized and disregarded, like I was a less valid member of the community because of my age.

[Dusty15]

Hi Dusty15. Thank you for your clarifications. Is this only visible when registering?

I registered more than ten years ago, and have to admit I don't remember a thing of what it said.

(And maybe it didn't even mention all these things back then?).

Nope! It's there at the right hand corner of the footer of the Forum on every page Might not be on the mobile site, but definitely on the main site.

[Jorm]

Hi Dusty15. Thank you for your clarifications. Is this only visible when registering?

I registered more than ten years ago, and have to admit I don't remember a thing of what it said.

(And maybe it didn't even mention all these things back then?).

Nope! It's there at the right hand corner of the footer of the Forum on every page Might not be on the mobile site, but definitely on the main site.

The constitution is also what automatically comes up if you type in the url "sneezefetishforum.org" without adding "/forums" at the end.

[Dusty15]

Hi Dusty15. Thank you for your clarifications. Is this only visible when registering?

I registered more than ten years ago, and have to admit I don't remember a thing of what it said.

(And maybe it didn't even mention all these things back then?).

Nope! It's there at the right hand corner of the footer of the Forum on every page Might not be on the mobile site, but definitely on the main site.

The constitution is also what automatically comes up if you type in the url "sneezefetishforum.org" without adding "/forums" at the end.

Sorry- we were referring to the Privacy Policy. It's there beside the link to the Constitution